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There are a lot of chaos biker threads starting up so I thought I'd ask to see how everyone is building their units and how useful they are.

In my mind, I see these guys as MoS with the IoE for FNP. Lightning claws are good at I6 and FNP is good for T5 models.

To me, biker units are chaos lord escorts. I'd put some melta guns in there and a strong character. VotLW is only one point so you could definitely use the black legion book. If you take the spinesliver, your lord gets +1 initiative in close combat which means he's I7 with MoS. I'd give him the hand also to try and 1-shot a wraithknight.

Are people taking full units of 9? Or are spawn better?

I myself take a 9 nurgle biker unit, fit with a biker lord (Fist/Claw, Sigil, Grenades) and an unmarked Sorcerer on a bike w. max Mastery and Spell Familiar (yes, unmarked characters can join marked units).

The sorcerer tries to roll up Invisibility on the Telepathy table for the godly 2+ Cover in the open and close combat shennanigans. Also, if you see you're not getting Invisibility on your last roll, go for the primaris Psychic Shriek - people love to underestimate this one and it usually costs them games.

All in all I'm very satisfied of this unit. It is a gamebreaker and I much prefer it to the Staledrakes (yes, playing 30+ games with dual drakes got stale fast).

Lot of questions there.

This is probably obvious, but I feel the need to point out you don't see so many biker lists because they compete with FOC spots with Heldrakes. I was into bikers before the Chaos FAQ and have built some bikerwing lists; they are the 'big' improvement over the last edition Codex.

When I face Eldar and Tau, I load up on bikers. Sure, they are not immune to the guns of these armies, but they are able to spread out like no other unit can and this is a huge advantage considering the types of pie plates other forces can drop on them.

The builds I see (and use) most often are large squads with MoS or MoN. They are most often used as delivery vehicles for CLs and Sorcerers with artefacts. IoE seems to be essential for MoS builds.

Where I see variations is with special weapons. Plasma seems to be more popular than meltas. A CL with melta bombs can be just as efficient as 2 melta guns, it only takes one shot.

As far as the BL supplement goes, a CL loaded down with artefacts (especially the one that gives eternal warrior) is much tougher with a jump pack.

Bikes also have a very hard time competing with spawn in my opinion, especially nurgle ones. Vanilla bikers and vanilla spawn are pretty much even.
Also chaos bikers got a giant kick in the balls when loyalists came out with +1 jink and ATSKNF for only 1 pt.
Without the ability for chaos bikers to be troops, I have a hard time fitting them in my lists.
Like the previous poster, I used them a lot when the codex first came out, but they never really did that well, if not comparing them to Heldrakes but spawn.

I like one unit of bikes (two plasmaguns and a power fist) with MoN to escort my Nurgle biker Lord and unmarked Sorcerer (level 3 Biomancy rolling for Endurance... Maybe better than IoE).

I just started running bikes too, but I prefer to stick my sorcerer with oblits and load him up with blessings/maledictions(I agree lvl 3 biomancy, rolling for endurance is beyond epic). I prefer to MoN my bikes, load them up with plasma and use them as a flanking unit. They are scary, fast, and can tie up a whole side of the table if they hit right. It forces your opponent to look at two different fronts as well. Something that they can't do when acting as a delivery system, since they are almost always rolling up the center. Flanking with the lord would make them less of a delivery system and more of an assisting unit since the majority t6 makes him hard to wound in non-challenge combat, assuming he's not MoN too. Not to mention the plasma guns wiping out pesky termies. Throw a combi-melta in somewhere and you have a 25% chance of blowing up any AV 14 you come across.

I use a unit of 6 nurgle bikes escorting a LV 2 Eric with telepathy. I use bikes because I refuse to use a crutch, aka Helldrake . The bikes don't always make their points back, but they draw fire....all of it. I had an entire Tau gunline spend a turn taking them down, letting my marines and cultists take objectives unhindered.

 Musashi363 wrote:
I use a unit of 6 nurgle bikes escorting a LV 2 Eric with telepathy. I use bikes because I refuse to use a crutch, aka Helldrake . The bikes don't always make their points back, but they draw fire....all of it. I had an entire Tau gunline spend a turn taking them down, letting my marines and cultists take objectives unhindered.

Not to derail the conversation, but I can't let this go! A Heldrake is not a crutch. A Heldrake is a good unit in an otherwise unremarkable codex.

On topic, Bikers are pretty awesome too. They mesh well with the "Chaos Rush the Midfield and Control the Board" game pretty well. also allowing you to deliver a killy Lord into combat reliably. Though, if that is the job, Spawn could compete with them in the sense they probably soak up more wounds and if they do make it to combat, they have many more attacks.
I run a minimum squad with my Lord who uses a Burning Brand with a Fist. The squad has two meltaguns. That unit drives around, torching scoring units, melting tanks and splitting up to hit soft units that don't want to be in close combat. When used in giant squads of 9 and such, they kind of lose their finesse and aren't really that awesome in combat. You don't want to run into paladins or th/ss terminators with them, you know? And 9 would just overkill any non-close combat squad.
What could a 3 man bike squad do? Obviously nothing against TH/SS guys, but I could still kill 12 Fire Warriors with them. Or 10 Guardians. Or I could tie up a Tactical Squad for the game.
Some food for thought.

I have a unit of seven, including a Melta and a Plasma, though the specials haven't really done a lot other than make my enemy glance twice with their armour or heavy infantry. I also have a Champion with a Powerlance and Meltabombs in there, mainly because he looks neat.

However, I've tended to run them with a Chaos Lord on a Steed of Slaanesh for the Outflank, and often coupled with a unit of Allied Daemon Seekers of Slaanesh, which gives me flanking reserves that can generally deal with vehicles or most backfield infantry.

A lot of the time the Chaos Lord has split off from them once they arrive on the battlefield, moving off to join any combats that could use tipping while the Bikes try to Melta something important or tie up big guns.

I've enjoyed them in that role, and I'd like to bring my bikers up to a full squad size (also, I could then run two smaller units and potentially divy up their anti-vehicle / anti-troops role a bit more).

I don't generally run any of my Chaos Marines with a Mark or Veterans, I usually prefer more bodies. However, I may just have to look into getting another Biker and converting him up with a Banner of Excess. Could be very interesting indeed.

Since my army is Emperors Children, MOS is mandatory. I also keep my units in multiples of 6 for fluff as such I run a unit of 5 MOS bikers with IOE for FNP. The biker champ has lightning claw and p-fist. I attach a biker lord with the burning brand and a lightning claw. The unit has two melta-guns in it. I just have a hard time putting plasma on bikers. I always loose one to gets hot and it just doesn't seem fair so why take the risk.

The Lord rarely gets pulled out of the fight in a challenge because of the Champion, who has the tools to deal with pretty much everything for at least one round.

 Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:
However, I've tended to run them with a Chaos Lord on a Steed of Slaanesh for the Outflank, and often coupled with a unit of Allied Daemon Seekers of Slaanesh, which gives me flanking reserves that can generally deal with vehicles or most backfield infantry.

A lot of the time the Chaos Lord has split off from them once they arrive on the battlefield, moving off to join any combats that could use tipping while the Bikes try to Melta something important or tie up big guns.

Can you tell us more about the mechanics of using the CL on a steed with bikers around? How well is the outflanking working out? Do you outflank him with other bikers or some other unit?

I have thought about doing this so often but have never tried it.

I also run EC, so it is a unit of 6 with 2 plasma, IoE, LC+Melta bomb champ. I run a ML 3 Sorc with Biomancy with a Force Axe, Sigil, and Melta bombs with my Lord who is packing Sigil, VotLW, PF+LC. For challenges, it depends what I am facing and who deals with it the best. Sometimes the Sorc gets Iron Arm and goes into beastmode on them, if it is a scrub sarge, the Champ can do it and risk the Spawn roll, and sometimes my Sorc craps out (I really should find the points for Familure) and my Lord has to do the heavy lifting. I will say one thing, having 3 guys that can deal with Challenges is pretty sweet.

 techsoldaten wrote:

Can you tell us more about the mechanics of using the CL on a steed with bikers around? How well is the outflanking working out? Do you outflank him with other bikers or some other unit?

I have thought about doing this so often but have never tried it.

It's the Lord with Sigil and Twin Claws in the bike squad I described, and usually 10 Seekers with a Heartseeker and possibly Rapturous Standard. I try to Outflank on the same board if possible, so both units can hit the enemy at once. The Run of the Seekers can really help get them far onto the table.

They have to survive a turn of Firepower because they are a clear threat often, so I try to have everything else in my army pushing from my board edge. Daemons up close, assault squads in rhinos nearly engaged, Daemon Prince hanging around etc.

I've pulled the Lord out so he can Charge separate units, usually with something else going first to eat the Overwatch, that usually works alright.

Overall, I find it lets me put pressure on the big guns that sit to the back, freeing the bulk of my army up for a turn at least.

I don't have a Heldrake and don't really like the model so they aren't fighting for the space in my army.

I'd go with either:
2 meltas and nothing else

or throw in a combi-melta for the captain and mark of nurgle

or just play your army as 'counts as' white scars.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:

It's the Lord with Sigil and Twin Claws in the bike squad I described, and usually 10 Seekers with a Heartseeker and possibly Rapturous Standard. I try to Outflank on the same board if possible, so both units can hit the enemy at once. The Run of the Seekers can really help get them far onto the table.

I have played the outflanking steed lord but I usually give him the burning brand and a lightning claw (and melta bombs just incase). Theres really no reason other than fluff to take 2 LC when you could take PF + LC and still have an extra attack without being completely useless against 2+ guys. Another option would be the black mace. The sad thing about the steed is that it doesn't make you T5 like the bike, juggernaught, disc and palaquin (since you need to have MoN) do which means you will be pulped very fast by a power fist if you try to melee anything too dangerous. So for me he just hangs around and flames weak units and maybe charges units which have no flighty guys nearby.

I do

Lord with fist/BBOS + MoN + Sigil
+
6 bikers w/ plasma + MoN
OR
+ 5 Spawn MoN

wtnind wrote:
Theres really no reason other than fluff to take 2 LC when you could take PF + LC and still have an extra attack without being completely useless against 2+ guys.

Yeah, I have had this pointed out to me. I think the model would look bizarre, but this is a model I bashed together way back at the beginning of 3rd, at the first sign of Chaos getting Lightning Claws at all! I like the model and don't want to change it.

you will be pulped very fast by a power fist if you try to melee anything too dangerous. So for me he just hangs around and flames weak units and maybe charges units which have no flighty guys nearby.

Also true, but I like him for clearing up those weaker or more shooty units that tend to sit near the back of the board.

Mark of Nurgle and Plasma Guns for me

Beware of putting Steed-mounted characters into units of Bikes with the intention of protecting them. Thanks to the wonders of Jink, your Bikers will benefit from a better Cover save and thus any incoming firepower can be allocated via Focus Fire. This is particularly damning for the Slaaneshii variant because you won't benefit from T5 either and so you can be sure of all the S8 firepower in the world being aimed at him, with only a LoS! to protect him.

Other than that, I think it's a no-brainer to always use the maximum allocation of special weapons. Also due to the high demand of CSM Fast slots (see- Heldrake) you will want to take them in beefier squads than seen with Loyalists, typically at least 6.
I'd also stay away from upgrading your Champion, if only because the unit works best as an escort and so you've already got a Lord/Sorcerer to handle Challenges. In any instance where you don't want the HQ involved, such as an enemy capable of killing them or wanting to slaughter lots of dudes, the Champion does not have access to any wargear that will actually help with those jobs. However, a combi-weapon is always a good plan.

I run two squads of Nurgle Bikers of 3 with Meltas for popping tanks. I ve been dabbling with running my chaos lord on a bike with them as well which has prooved successful.

Mozzamanx wrote:
Beware of putting Steed-mounted characters into units of Bikes with the intention of protecting them. Thanks to the wonders of Jink, your Bikers will benefit from a better Cover save and thus any incoming firepower can be allocated via Focus Fire. This is particularly damning for the Slaaneshii variant because you won't benefit from T5 either and so you can be sure of all the S8 firepower in the world being aimed at him, with only a LoS! to protect him.

That's a very good point. I hadn't considered that.

Would Focus Fire affect the Majority Toughness rule?

The LoS of a Chaos Lord is 2+ at least, so most shots will go to the unit though.

I generally find I get more bang for my buck from spawn, but bikers are more versatile if they survive long enough.

I normally keep at least one FA slot (I go double force org with maxed out FA on big games) open for a unit of bikes cos I spent ages converting up a unit of glaive wielding thousand sons on discs as my bikers.

 Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:

Mozzamanx wrote:
Beware of putting Steed-mounted characters into units of Bikes with the intention of protecting them. Thanks to the wonders of Jink, your Bikers will benefit from a better Cover save and thus any incoming firepower can be allocated via Focus Fire. This is particularly damning for the Slaaneshii variant because you won't benefit from T5 either and so you can be sure of all the S8 firepower in the world being aimed at him, with only a LoS! to protect him.

That's a very good point. I hadn't considered that.

Would Focus Fire affect the Majority Toughness rule?

The LoS of a Chaos Lord is 2+ at least, so most shots will go to the unit though.

Majority Toughness only affects the roll To Wound, which is this case is utterly redundant. S8 against T4 or 5, either results in a 2+. However the Instant Death is determined after the wound is allocated and your T4 Lord cannot use the majority T5 to save him.
Ultimately a 2+ is still very nice, and you'd have a 3+/(4++ if bought) armour save on top of that. But the risk is certainly there and worth considering.

Mozzamanx wrote:

Majority Toughness only affects the roll To Wound, which is this case is utterly redundant. S8 against T4 or 5, either results in a 2+.

While redundant in this case, it isn't redundant in principle. The rules for focus fire affect who wounds are allocated to (after the to-hit / to-wounds have been rolled), so it has no effect on majority toughness under any circumstances.

Mozzamanx wrote:

S8 against T4 or 5, either results in a 2+. However the Instant Death is determined after the wound is allocated and your T4 Lord cannot use the majority T5 to save him.
Ultimately a 2+ is still very nice, and you'd have a 3+/(4++ if bought) armour save on top of that. But the risk is certainly there and worth considering.

This! there are way more S8/9 shots out there than S10. I'd be pretty ok with sticking a Jugger lord (T5) in with bikes but not the steed. 1 in 12 chance of your day being ruined by every S8 wound directed at the unit is definitely not worth taking. If you do want to do it for fluff reasons or something then at least try to park the lord in area cover so they can't focus fire him (or put a screening unit infront). Add to this the fact that steeds can't turbo boost (get ready for an argument with your opponent over whether you can still run/turbo boost mix match) and it's just not worth it.

I agree. If you are going to run a Steed, have him escorted by Spawn.

If you are going to run bikes, put your Lord on a bike.

Mozzamanx wrote:

I'd also stay away from upgrading your Champion, if only because the unit works best as an escort and so you've already got a Lord/Sorcerer to handle Challenges. In any instance where you don't want the HQ involved, such as an enemy capable of killing them or wanting to slaughter lots of dudes, the Champion does not have access to any wargear that will actually help with those jobs. However, a combi-weapon is always a good plan.

The rest of your posts I agree with. But this one I have a counter-point to. I run a single bike squad of 6 bikes and I have my Lord and Sorc both on bikes with them. I run EC, so I make sure to run the Bikes and Lord with MoS and give the bikes a IoE for FNP. My champ is now a valuable asset to this squad and I can use him in two ways. One way would be your way... run him naked and use him for suicide challenges against things I don't want my Lord or Sorc to fight. Instead, I load him out with a Melta bomb and LC and let him deal with Challenges from stuff I don't want to /waste/ a HQ on. Sure, naked CCW+BP might be able to handle this, but I feel the extra points spent means less risk. I don't need that Nob with a claw or IG Sergeant with a Power Axe getting armor saves, and at that point, with that point cost in mind, I will take the Shred SR.

Otherwise on a naked squad, yeah... naked or with a combi sounds fine. But with HQs added on... it is really on what you want your champ to do and what his role is at that point.

wtnind wrote:

1 in 12 chance of your day being ruined by every S8 wound directed at the unit is definitely not worth taking. If you do want to do it for fluff reasons or something then at least try to park the lord in area cover so they can't focus fire him (or put a screening unit infront). Add to this the fact that steeds can't turbo boost (get ready for an argument with your opponent over whether you can still run/turbo boost mix match) and it's just not worth it.

The idea was to provide Outflank to the Bike unit, getting meltas and such to the back of the opponents board, but I can see the issue with that Focus Fire point now. I do usually separate the Lord off from the unit fairly quickly, but it is a definite thing to be aware off.

I have never seen anyone argue that I couldn't make the Lord run and then Boost the Bikes up to him. That's a new one for me.