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I see it mentioned online a lot but in actual army lists, people seem to splurge on Relics or Daemon Weapons when it comes down to it.

So, do people just not like taking anything less than a brutal HQ equipped for cyberdemon bear?

I see it all the time on chaos lords that don't have the mark of khorne. AP2 is a must have when your characters must issue challenges all the time. I tried to get around it once and got stuck for three turns in a challenge with a techmarine.

I don't. I'm a wargear minimalist. I can't stomach paying the kind of points needed for that kit. I'm also a WYSWYG guy, and while I could build a captain with a PF/LC, I have not. IMHO it looks goofy, particularly for bike captains.

It is a very flexible build, that I think might be overshadowed by the relics these days. But for those people who like to tool up their characters into unstoppable killing machines, it does offer the best of both worlds. So while I have my own reasons against fielding it, I will advocate it as a valid option for people who like tricked out characters.

I used a MoN terminator chaos lord with PF, LC quite a bit. He was a pretty good beatstick for the points.

I use the PF/LC combo in my CSM army for some of my champions... Pricy but it can definitely get the job done. It's best for units with the MoK since they have a higher number of attacks on the charge.

I'm too cheap.

I have the next closest thing in my Chaos army: Huron with his power axe and claw.
But, I can understand the appeal of it. Having the option to kill what you want to kill can work.

In my recent experience, it's more points to be scatter lasered/star cannoned off the table.

My chaos lord needs to be able to handle wraithknights and riptides...The khorne lord on a jugger with axe of blinding fury is staring down the barrel at too much instant death he can't reliably get the job done.

Next best thing is a nurgle power fist lightning claw lord on a bike. He can put the hurt on both those units, and plague marine troops as an added bonus.

I can also vouch for the PF/Claw combo on Chaos Lords. Works well but then again, where do I put my Burning Brand?
On a Daemon Prince you say?
Crazy talk.

Martel732 wrote:
In my recent experience, it's more points to be scatter lasered/star cannoned off the table.

You nailed my biggest concern.
How many points is too many to invest in a single model whose primary function is assault?

I'm not saying to not use a Lord or Captain, but be mindful of the needs of the army as a whole.

I use it all the time with my Thousand Sons army.

Lord on disc with PF/LC, sigil , MoT and votlw.

T5, 3++, 5 attacks, hatred space marines, jet bike movement.

Stick him with a unit of spawn and/or have him hop from unit to unit as needed.

Works for me.

I do it in two places. Chaos champions and Wolf Guard Terminators.

It has always served me well in a fairly diverse gaming environment where one race really doesn't outnumber another.

I have a harder time using it because I do Emperors Children. A little bit of me dies on the inside to not make use of the Init, but I suck it up and use it on my Bike Lord because I need the AP 2. Every champ gets a LC+Melta bomb though. I have to play to force as many saving throws as possible to force 1s.

I use it in space wolves on terminator lone wolves and terminators babysitting big packs of blood claws

I currently plan to include a slaaneshi lord with murder sword in my 1500pt list eventually.

Would the pf/lc combo suit him better (the points are roughly the same I think) or would he be better off with the murder sword and trying to avoid combat with 2+ save models unless it is the target of the sword?

The other thing that worries me is as he only as power armour and the sigil (which makes me wonder why chaos lords don't have an option for 2+ save daemonic armour) is he survivable enough to use the powerfist for ap2 attacks?

The only option chaos have for non unwieldy ap2 on a lord is the axe of blind fury but I don't want a khorne lord as I have a unit of noise marines in my Troops that I don't want to become Elites.

Thoughts?

 rohansoldier wrote:
I currently plan to include a slaaneshi lord with murder sword in my 1500pt list eventually.

Would the pf/lc combo suit him better (the points are roughly the same I think) or would he be better off with the murder sword and trying to avoid combat with 2+ save models unless it is the target of the sword?

The other thing that worries me is as he only as power armour and the sigil (which makes me wonder why chaos lords don't have an option for 2+ save daemonic armour) is he survivable enough to use the powerfist for ap2 attacks?

The only option chaos have for non unwieldy ap2 on a lord is the axe of blind fury but I don't want a khorne lord as I have a unit of noise marines in my Troops that I don't want to become Elites.

Thoughts?

I will tell you this... I run my lord on a bike, with a Sigil, with PF+LC, VotlW and MoS. I also run a ML 3 Sorc in the squad on a bike with a Force Axe and Melta bombs with Sigil with 3 rolls on Biomancy. The Bike squad is 6 bikes with 2 Plasma guns, Champ with LC+Melta bomb, MoS with a IoE to give my Lord FNP. Two bolter bikes in the front with the plasma on the side/rear with my champ in the rear between the plasma. Sorc and Lord in the middle with the Icon trailing a touch behind between the HQs.

He has been survivable enough most times with the Sigil+T5+FNP to suck up the loss of Init to swing the Fist when he has too. The problem with being on foot is the T4. Now PFs, Melta guns, Lascannons, and anything Str 8-9 is Insta Death-ing him. You don't have FNP to fall back on, all you have is the Sigil save and nothing more. So no, on foot he is not going to win a fight with another PF Sarge who is swinging the same time he is unless the guy just wiffs (which might happen, keeping your WS in mind) or rolls 1s to wound.

At that point, I would just run a Lightining Claw+ Bolt pistol and Melta bomb combo and ride the Init to hit them a bunch of times re-rolling failed wounds and hoping I do enough wounds to them that they fail a save or three. Pray you don't run into Eldar who are Init 6, but be happy they normally can't produce Str 8+ melee attacks so your FNP (if you take a IoE) would go off to hopefully keep you standing to get some swings off.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
I have the next closest thing in my Chaos army: Huron with his power axe and claw.
But, I can understand the appeal of it. Having the option to kill what you want to kill can work.

What makes it work is that your paying 15 points for the +1 attack.

There are times you will want to use the claw over the fist, but they are pretty rare.

I think you would use the claw a fair amount, anything T3 it's better and T4 is nearly the same damage result at I5.

But then if all you really need is the Fist, I'd start looking at a TH & SS combo instead. Lose an attack for concussive and 3++

 BlkTom wrote:

 rohansoldier wrote:
I currently plan to include a slaaneshi lord with murder sword in my 1500pt list eventually.

Would the pf/lc combo suit him better (the points are roughly the same I think) or would he be better off with the murder sword and trying to avoid combat with 2+ save models unless it is the target of the sword?

The other thing that worries me is as he only as power armour and the sigil (which makes me wonder why chaos lords don't have an option for 2+ save daemonic armour) is he survivable enough to use the powerfist for ap2 attacks?

The only option chaos have for non unwieldy ap2 on a lord is the axe of blind fury but I don't want a khorne lord as I have a unit of noise marines in my Troops that I don't want to become Elites.

Thoughts?

I will tell you this... I run my lord on a bike, with a Sigil, with PF+LC, VotlW and MoS. I also run a ML 3 Sorc in the squad on a bike with a Force Axe and Melta bombs with Sigil with 3 rolls on Biomancy. The Bike squad is 6 bikes with 2 Plasma guns, Champ with LC+Melta bomb, MoS with a IoE to give my Lord FNP. Two bolter bikes in the front with the plasma on the side/rear with my champ in the rear between the plasma. Sorc and Lord in the middle with the Icon trailing a touch behind between the HQs.

He has been survivable enough most times with the Sigil+T5+FNP to suck up the loss of Init to swing the Fist when he has too. The problem with being on foot is the T4. Now PFs, Melta guns, Lascannons, and anything Str 8-9 is Insta Death-ing him. You don't have FNP to fall back on, all you have is the Sigil save and nothing more. So no, on foot he is not going to win a fight with another PF Sarge who is swinging the same time he is unless the guy just wiffs (which might happen, keeping your WS in mind) or rolls 1s to wound.

At that point, I would just run a Lightining Claw+ Bolt pistol and Melta bomb combo and ride the Init to hit them a bunch of times re-rolling failed wounds and hoping I do enough wounds to them that they fail a save or three. Pray you don't run into Eldar who are Init 6, but be happy they normally can't produce Str 8+ melee attacks so your FNP (if you take a IoE) would go off to hopefully keep you standing to get some swings off.

That seems like a hell of a lot of points in one unit, especially with the 2 hq's. I can see why you would do it though, with the lord, biomancy, and the toughness, fnp, invuln saves, they would hit hard.

Maybe I need to find points in my 1500 list to include the lord on bike and a bike unit?

I would likely have to drop a heavy support unit of havocs or a predator (or both) plus a troop choice to do it though. Is it worth that?

Would you mind sharing your 1500pt list?

 minigun762 wrote:
I think you would use the claw a fair amount, anything T3 it's better and T4 is nearly the same damage result at I5.

But then if all you really need is the Fist, I'd start looking at a TH & SS combo instead. Lose an attack for concussive and 3++

Chaos can't have TH+SS though, so that is why they use PF+LC a lot and put Sigils on every HQ to keep them alive. Best they can do to equal a Storm Shield is MoT on Sigil HQs to get the 3++. Only Thunder Hammer in the Chaos Codex is on the Dreadnaught/Hellbrute. Storm Shields are why Loyalists don't run PF+LC, because you can have a non-Terminator Captain with a Storm Shield rock a Power Fist or Thunder Hammer and have the survivability with that 3++ to live at Init 1.

So do we assume that a 3++ is required on an HQ?

 rohansoldier wrote:


That seems like a hell of a lot of points in one unit, especially with the 2 hq's. I can see why you would do it though, with the lord, biomancy, and the toughness, fnp, invuln saves, they would hit hard.

Maybe I need to find points in my 1500 list to include the lord on bike and a bike unit?

I would likely have to drop a heavy support unit of havocs or a predator (or both) plus a troop choice to do it though. Is it worth that?

Would you mind sharing your 1500pt list?

Sorry to say my local meta is 1850pts, so I have that extra 350pta that you don't have to pull this off. And yes, it is designed as a Death Star type unit. If you want, I could try to cut down my list to 1500pts and send it to you as a message, or would you still like the full list at 1850pts and make those cuts yourself? I would rather try to do this through messages to avoid de-railing this thread as little as possible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 minigun762 wrote:
So do we assume that a 3++ is required on an HQ?

If you want your HQ to live and your planning on doing Close Combat with them, you want the best Invuln save you can fit on them. There is a argument for a Loyalist Captain with a Iron Halo to avoid a SS because your spending 15pts for a +1 to your Invuln save, but a Libby? Hell yeah. Then you look at guys that don't even have a option at a Invuln save like a Master of the Forge, and you see you can get a Relic SS to throw on him, it is a no-brainer as far as I am concerned. Way to much AP 1-2 stuff out there to not even give your HQ a chance.

I guess I was thinking mostly of going from a 4++ to 3++, might not be worth the loss of an attack.

My Khornate Raptor Champion uses this setup, to great effect. No other character in my army (including Kharn and my AoBF Daemon Prince), has as many wins. Last game (vs. Dark Eldar), he became a S5 T5 +1A 2+ save MONSTER, and carved his way through a huge Beastmaster unit, a small unit of Incubi, and a unit of Wracks before succumbing to spawnhood...and even then he killed a couple more models.

 minigun762 wrote:
I guess I was thinking mostly of going from a 4++ to 3++, might not be worth the loss of an attack.

Like I said, there is an argument to be made in that situation, but that is a very narrow situation. This will only effect a Loyalist Chapter Master or Captain (dunno about other Marine Codexes beside Vanilla & Chaos) because they come with a Iron Halo and can get a SS, even as Terminators. Who else even has the option? In the Vanilla codex the other HQs can use the Relic SS, but only the Chaplin has a base 4++. Not like that relic SS is cheap either.

You as the player have to figure out what you value more. At that point, for a loyalist captain/chapter master, your spending the same points for a LC or a SS while in power armor anyways, so it isn't even a cheaper option. Personally, I would ride the Free Iron Halo and go with the PF+LC or just a PF/TH and be done with it.