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Hey everyone. In light of my participation in a thread regarding how Tyranids can deal with Wave Serpents I've made some changes to my list for an upcoming tournament.

Flyrant with dual devourers
Swarmlord
-Tyrant guard

Doom of Malan'Tai
-spod
3 Hive guard
2 Zoanthrope

5 Genestealers
-Broodlord
10 Termagants
10 Termagants
Tervigon
-2 psychic powers, TS, scything talons, cluster spines
Tervigon
-2 psychic powers, TS, scything talons, cluster spines

30 Gargoyles
-AG + TS

Totals 1850

The advice I'm looking for is this: This list is definitely lacking the the Heavy support section and Tyranids have a decent array of units to choose from. Should I drop a unit of Termagants and a Tervigon (240 points) to gain a Mawloc and a couple biovores (260 points)? I'd have to be creative where I slash points from (probably a genestealer and the scything talon upgrade to the Tervigon to get close. Is 1 Tervigon enough?

My philosophy regarding the current list is this: With 8 Psykers able to dole out 9 powers each turn, my most valuable units will be/should be protected by FnP or Iron arm throughout the entire game, not to mention being able to cast maledictions against the enemy in the case my rolling doesn't turn out ideal. Additionally, being so troop heavy, I should succeed at objective based games. I plan on using the Genestealers G2G trick and be forced back to their feet by synapse and hopefully get a surprise assault off (hoping for Iron arm on the Broodlord, but Endurance wouldn't hurt either). I can also change my deployment based on the opponent, by choosing to outflank the 'stealers or infiltrate them.

The gargoyles will hopefully be a great screen unit, and hopefully with Endurance or Catalyst, they should be able to make it to the enemy lines and wreak havoc in assault. 1 HOW attack, and 2 additional attacks on the charge that auto wound on 6's is nothing to scoff at.

The reason I was thinking to add a Mawloc is so I could use the gargoyles and gants to create a barrier around the enemy so they can't move and have the Mawloc enter doing some damage, but hoping I can pull off removing some sort of super unit because it can't be placed according to the TFtD rule.

What say you dakka?

Does anyone think dropping a Tervigon for a Mawloc and biovores is a good idea?

Biovores are def a good ootion as is mawlock imo he will take some interest off the swarmlord. Dont see the point of the 5 man stealer squad tho

warren0110 wrote:
Biovores are def a good ootion as is mawlock imo he will take some interest off the swarmlord. Dont see the point of the 5 man stealer squad tho

That unit is there simply there for distraction. I think Broodlords are definitely underrated this edition. Firstly, for 74 points (Genestealer + 60 for BL upgrade) you basically get a Trygon with access to Biomancy.

Lets compare: Broodlord = 74 points (or 130 if you count the whole unit of Genestealers)
WS-BS-S-T-W-I-A-LD-SV
7-0-5-5-3-7-4-10-4+

Trygon 200 points
WS-BS-S-T-W-I-A-LD-SV
5-3-6-6-5-6-4-10-3+

Initially, you might say, "No way is a Broodlord even close!" but bear with me:

+2 WS, -1 S & T, -3 W, +2 I, -1 Sv. But remember your Broodlord has a retinue! Add 5 T4 wounds to his characteristic table as "ablative" wounds. Now you have 2 more wounds than a Trygon. Granted, the wounds are T4 but wait!

Your Genestealers can infiltrate? Now you're at the minimum, 6" closer to the enemy that a Trygon would be (if not closer if you can remain out of LoS). Additionally, they can also reliably Outflank when paired with the Swarmlord (although I find this tactic less enticing).

That's not it folks! With access to Biomancy, your Broodlord could roll Endurance, Iron Arm, Enfeeble, or Warp speed! All of which are helpful! What's that you say? A Broodlord with Iron arm now has S7 T7 (on average). BETTER than a Trygon! By the time it matters (in challenges and melee) your Broodlord becomes an amazing assassin! Yes, a Broodlord's attacks are not AP2, but as a slight accommodation, they are rending.

Best yet, thanks to the G2G but regaining Fearless FAQ (Pg. 5) http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m3440036a_40K_RULEBOOK_v1.5_September_13.pdf when your Genestealers are targeted while in cover, you can go to ground outside of Synapse to gain a +2 to your Cv. Meaning in ruins you've got a 2+ or any other area terrain you've got a 3+. I've had a few games where, with Endurance and in terrain, I've only lost 2 Genestealers and took a wound on the Broodlord from 2 maxed unit of guardians with a Star cannon in tow. That was even when I had positioned the Broodlord incorrectly and hadn't passed all of my LoS! rolls. You're probably going to say, "Well, with as many options as lists have these days to ignore cover, they're toast!" Yeah, I will agree with you. Ignore cover is pretty rampant with all of the Wave serpents, Buffmanders, Markerlights, so on and so forth. But that's the ideal time when you can take advantage of your deployment options and Outflank them to avoid their demise!

Are your Genestealers scoring? Yes they are friend! Which means they have to be dealt with! A Trygon can often be ignored (unless the mission includes Big guns never Tire in which case not only is it scoring, but it's also worth a VP)

My last point: This 130 point unit should be a priority target. I am willing to bet that most opponents will agree. But, when they get into combat T1 (or more likely T2) and they lose a unit your opponent will realize his/her mistake and it may be too late. On the flip side: If you opponent realizes their potential and targets them as a priority, that's yet another turn (or 2) that your Tervigon, Flyrant, Swarmlord, etc. is not being targeted. If Ignore cover is not used against them, the amount of firepower they'll weather is staggering.

Let me remind you that you get all of this for 130 points!. I personally believe that they synergize with my list extremely well because I'm forcing my opponent to deal with the Genestealers, 30 Gargoyles, OR my Flyrant. I don't know about you, but I think most opponents will mistakenly prioritize these as: 1) Flyrant, 2) Gargoyles 3) Genestealers IMHO the priority should be in this order: 1) Gargoyles (because they can give mobile cover to the genestealers) 2) Genestealers (because they will run down any units they hit) 3) Flyrant

I hope I was able to answer your question as to why I included them ;-)

Any advice/critiques would be helpful at this point everyone.

Thanks!

I really like your take on the broodlord. I'd never thought of it that way.

Don't drop a terv for a mawloc, tricky combos like you're wanting to do have alot that could go wrong. Biovores would be good, I'd either make the points for them by taking out the zoans or maybe the genestealer stuff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I do like the broodlord analysis, I might consider trying that out in some future lists.

Poly Ranger wrote:I really like your take on the broodlord. I'd never thought of it that way.

Ol'Dirty wrote:Don't drop a terv for a mawloc, tricky combos like you're wanting to do have alot that could go wrong. Biovores would be good, I'd either make the points for them by taking out the zoans or maybe the genestealer stuff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I do like the broodlord analysis, I might consider trying that out in some future lists.

Thanks for the input! I agree that the tricky combos aren't ideal, but since I don't have any Ymargls, I am looking for something to surpise/deter those pesky gunlines that are going to mow down my nids!

Poly Ranger wrote:
I really like your take on the broodlord. I'd never thought of it that way.

theres a list somewhere here where someone spammed broodlords, taking them that way.
it was interesting

 ninjafiredragon wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
I really like your take on the broodlord. I'd never thought of it that way.

theres a list somewhere here where someone spammed broodlords, taking them that way.
it was interesting

I think it might have been mine :-)

I ended up playing it against a footdar player and it was amazing. The g2g trick makes them amazingly resilient (but then again he didn't have any ignore cover stuff). We had to end it turn 3 because of time and he was in trouble.

I played a variation of it against a mechdar player and got stomped (after losing a Tervigon to an ID Wraithknight shot) T1 and while there wasn't much left on the table for me, I probably would have tied the game. This game I opted to outflank the genestealer units (using Swarmlord's reroll outflanking sides) and got 3 out of the 4 on the side I wanted. Needless to say, the Eldar player was expecting me to infiltrate them into cover so he deployed according to attempt to deny me area terrain and when I outlfanked them instead it totally threw off his game plan :-).

While fun, I can't say its necessarily as good as it could be. Using the g2g trick, they are WAY more resilient than an unsuspecting opponent realizes, but they are no where near that of a Seer-star, screamer star, or Draigowing list...Nor do they have the damage potential. Realizing this, I've been using a unit, maybe two as a distraction/surprise unit. Hopefully catching an suspecting opponent by surprise and weathering way more fire than they should normally.

The biggest problem is the damage potential. They, unlike the other resilient units, have no damage output until combat. Those others mentioned can put out lots of hurt before assault and then on top of it they can assault well too. I guess it may be unfair to compare 130 points genestealer units to deathstars....

For the same cost I could get a ymgral brood and I find them better than the the hive guard in the elite slot.

Looks good to me, the only changes you could possibly make are to replace to zoanthropes for something if you wanted, and or take a 2nd flying hive tyrant instead of swarmy, but they are decisions that come down to personal preferance.

barnowl wrote:For the same cost I could get a ymgral brood and I find them better than the the hive guard in the elite slot.

I think that both are dependent on situation.

On the one hand, Ymargls are highly adaptable, they add to disruption, and can be unpredictable in the opponent's mind. On the other hand, Hive guard are more reliable as an Anti Armor option (especially Wave serpents) and their high strength gives them potential to ID things that Ymargls cannot.

Against a Wave serpent
3 Hive guard: 4 hit (5 if preferred enemy), 2 glances 1 pen (average)=1 dead Wave serpent

7 Ymargl genestealers
+1 attack mutation: 28 attacks, 19 hit (3 rending, but you need 6's anyways to glance)=1 dead Wave serpent
+1 Strength mutation: 21 attacks, 14 hit (2 rending, 2 glances)= 1 dead Wave serpent

Looks pretty even. I will say that the idea of Ymargls especially their flexibility. They, however, can be screened out of combat by a throw away unit....

tiber55 wrote:Looks good to me, the only changes you could possibly make are to replace to zoanthropes for something if you wanted, and or take a 2nd flying hive tyrant instead of swarmy, but they are decisions that come down to personal preferance.

Thanks for the input! I used to run 2 Flyrants, but have switched to Swarmlord just for the "fun" factor.

Just to follow up regarding the thread, I've decided to change up the list significantly!

Will post when it gets finalized!