Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The SM codex says that successor chapters use their parent chapter's chapter tactics, so I have a few questions pertaining to successors and characters.
1) can a successor to a chapter take a named hq from the parent chapter? ( ie: UM successor taking calgar, tigurius, etc)
2) for IF, can they take both Pedro and/or Lysander, as they both use IF tactics but one is crimson fists and one is IF?

1) Absolutely, you can use any named character that uses the chapter tactics of your detachment they are in.
2) Pedro uses CT : Imperial Fists so yes, they can be in the same detachment.

1. Yes, you can take a specail character with the same chapter tactics.
2. I actually think that Pedro and Lysander cannot be in the same detatchment. The codex says special character must be taken in their own chapter detatchment. While Pedro has the IF chapter tactics, he need to be taken by a CF detatchment. Sure, because of same chapter tactics, you can take any IF unit. But even if you take a IF unit, this detatchment is still a CF detatchment (because you got Pedro). You cannot be a Crisom Fist and a Imperial Fist detatchment in the same time. So no, I would say they cannot be in the same detatchment.

MadCamel wrote:

2. I actually think that Pedro and Lysander cannot be in the same detatchment. The codex says special character must be taken in their own chapter detatchment. While Pedro has the IF chapter tactics, he need to be taken by a CF detatchment. Sure, because of same chapter tactics, you can take any IF unit. But even if you take a IF unit, this detatchment is still a CF detatchment (because you got Pedro). You cannot be a Crisom Fist and a Imperial Fist detatchment in the same time. So no, I would say they cannot be in the same detatchment.

pg 77 says you can take two different chapters as a single detachment as long as they have the same chapter tactics. While Pedro and Lysander belong to different chapters they both have the same chapter tactics and can be fielded in the same detachment.

Ideally Pedro should be painted in Crimson Fist colors even if you are using him in an Imperial Fist detachment but this is not required.

 DJGietzen wrote:

MadCamel wrote:

2. I actually think that Pedro and Lysander cannot be in the same detatchment. The codex says special character must be taken in their own chapter detatchment. While Pedro has the IF chapter tactics, he need to be taken by a CF detatchment. Sure, because of same chapter tactics, you can take any IF unit. But even if you take a IF unit, this detatchment is still a CF detatchment (because you got Pedro). You cannot be a Crisom Fist and a Imperial Fist detatchment in the same time. So no, I would say they cannot be in the same detatchment.

pg 77 says you can take two different chapters as a single detachment as long as they have the same chapter tactics. While Pedro and Lysander belong to different chapters they both have the same chapter tactics and can be fielded in the same detachment.

Ideally Pedro should be painted in Crimson Fist colors even if you are using him in an Imperial Fist detachment but this is not required.

But pg 158 says "these units can only be taken in detatchment of this Chapter". Sure, you can take any CF unit in a IF detatchment, or any IF unit in a CF detatchment, because rule wise, they are all the same. But with Pedro and Lysander it is a different case. You can take Calgar in a Novamarine detatchment, because even without any UM, it can still count as a UM detatchment. But you can't take Pedro + Lysander, because you can't count as CF anf IF in the same time, you need to choose one.

You'd be right, if it didn't say "as described on page 77." all pg 158 says is fallow the rules on page 77.

"You can field models from two different Chapters that have the same Chapter Tactics in the same detachment." So you can field Crimson Fist tactical squad in a Imperial Fist detatchment. But if you take Lysander, your detatchment automatically lock to "Imperial Fist" because of pg158. You can still take Crimson Fist Tactical squad, they have the sam Chapter tactics. But for Pedro, he gets another restriction "he can only be taken in Crimson Fist chapter detatchment". He fulfill the restriction1 "same chapter tactics", but not the restriction2 "Crimson Fist chapter detatchment". You need to pass both restriction on pg77 and pg158.

What detatchment it is when you field Pedro + Lysander? A CF detatchment? Then Lysander is illegal. A IF detatchment? Then Pedro is illegal.

pg 158 imposes no restrictions None.

Where on page 77 does it tell you you can't field two models with same chapter tactics but different chapter icons? This is important because pg 158 cannot mean this if it is not expressed some where on page 77.

The fact that there is a specific restriction on the character is what stops it.

If you are indeed stating that a Crimson Fist detatchment is the exact same thing as an Imperial Fist detatchment, then are you implying that Pedro's ability to make Crimson Fist sternguard scoring units also allows him to make Imperial Fist sternguard scoring as well?

Eihnlazer wrote:
The fact that there is a specific restriction on the character is what stops it.

There is no such restriction! P. 158 tells you follow rules on p. 77.

If you are indeed stating that a Crimson Fist detatchment is the exact same thing as an Imperial Fist detatchment, then are you implying that Pedro's ability to make Crimson Fist sternguard scoring units also allows him to make Imperial Fist sternguard scoring as well?

Yes. You point at your yellow Sternguard models and say: "These are Crimson Fists Sternguard." Done.

So you can also point at your lysander and say he's a crimson fist lysander?

MadCamel wrote:
"You can field models from two different Chapters that have the same Chapter Tactics in the same detachment." So you can field Crimson Fist tactical squad in a Imperial Fist detatchment. But if you take Lysander, your detatchment automatically lock to "Imperial Fist" because of pg158. You can still take Crimson Fist Tactical squad, they have the sam Chapter tactics. But for Pedro, he gets another restriction "he can only be taken in Crimson Fist chapter detatchment". He fulfill the restriction1 "same chapter tactics", but not the restriction2 "Crimson Fist chapter detatchment". You need to pass both restriction on pg77 and pg158.

What detatchment it is when you field Pedro + Lysander? A CF detatchment? Then Lysander is illegal. A IF detatchment? Then Pedro is illegal.

I am not finding this restriction on Pedro at all (using the digital codex so I can't follow the pages, however I also cannot find it using a search through the codex either).
Can you quote this particular restriction please?

The only restriction I can find (which in this case does not apply) is the following;

"Certain units and special characters have specific Chapter Tactics and can only be taken in detachments of the specified Chapter."

As Kantor and Lysander both have CT : IF, they may (by this ruling) be taken in detachments specified as CT : IF.

There is no Crimson Fists chapter tactics. When building your list, if you choose Imperial Fists, you may field any and all units that have CT : Imperial Fists, and that includes Pedro Kantor.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eihnlazer wrote:
If you are indeed stating that a Crimson Fist detatchment is the exact same thing as an Imperial Fist detatchment, then are you implying that Pedro's ability to make Crimson Fist sternguard scoring units also allows him to make Imperial Fist sternguard scoring as well?

Well, as there is no CT : Crimson Fists, I guess it's (RAW) impossible for sternguard to be scoring units. RAI however would easily be argued that having Pedro in your army makes your CT : IF sternguard scoring. Chalk it up to a bad edit (yet again) on GW's part.

Eihnlazer wrote:
So you can also point at your lysander and say he's a crimson fist lysander?

What would it matter?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rorschach9 wrote:

Well, as there is no CT : Crimson Fists, I guess it's (RAW) impossible for sternguard to be scoring units. RAI however would easily be argued that having Pedro in your army makes your CT : IF sternguard scoring. Chalk it up to a bad edit (yet again) on GW's part.

Well, it is strangely worded but I think it still works by RAW. Crimson Fists Sternguard are Sternguard with IF trait that you declare to be Crimson Fists. This is of course the only rule in the entire book that differentiates between marines of different chapters that share the trait, so it is kinda odd.

Pg 158 says "these units can only be taken in detatchment of this Chapter".
So if you take Pedro, then you are taking a CF chapter detatchment.
If you take Lysander, then you are taking a IF chapter detatchment.

You don't need to take a CF detatchment to field CF sternguard. But you need to take a CF detatchment to field Pedro.

Special character makes your detatchment the specific chapter, no matter the paint scheme.

MadCamel wrote:
Pg 158 says "these units can only be taken in detatchment of this Chapter".

You left out: "... as described on page 77." Page 77 has specific allowance for taking units of different chapters as a singe detachment, as long as they share a chapter trait. Page 158 only has incomplete summary, full rules are on page 77.

MadCamel wrote:
Pg 158 says "these units can only be taken in detatchment of this Chapter".
So if you take Pedro, then you are taking a CF chapter detatchment.
If you take Lysander, then you are taking a IF chapter detatchment.

Special character makes your detatchment the specific chapter, no matter the paint scheme.

Nobody has mentioned paint scheme as how you paint your minis is entirely irrelevant to the rules (though it is nice if you paint them to represent the appropriate chapter, of course, it's not required).

Pedro Kantor is Chapter Tactics : Imperial Fists, not Chapter Tactics : Crimson Fists (as there is no CT : CF).

What determines the "detachment of this Chapter", using only the rules? Chapter and Chapter Traits are different. Chapter traits are what the rules discuss when it comes to the restrictions you're talking about here.

*ninja'd*

MadCamel wrote:
Pg 158 says "these units can only be taken in detatchment of this Chapter".
So if you take Pedro, then you are taking a CF chapter detatchment.
If you take Lysander, then you are taking a IF chapter detatchment.

Special character makes your detatchment the specific chapter, no matter the paint scheme.

No. A Special Character makes your detachment the specific chapter trait. Both of those characters share a chapter trait. Your assumption has no standing in actual rules.

rigeld2 wrote:

MadCamel wrote:
Pg 158 says "these units can only be taken in detatchment of this Chapter".
So if you take Pedro, then you are taking a CF chapter detatchment.
If you take Lysander, then you are taking a IF chapter detatchment.

Special character makes your detatchment the specific chapter, no matter the paint scheme.

No. A Special Character makes your detachment the specific chapter trait. Both of those characters share a chapter trait. Your assumption has no standing in actual rules.

But it says in detachment of "this Chapter", not detachment of "a chapter with the same chapter trait".

Taking page 77 into account (which you must, as that's the rest of the rule you refuse to quote) we see that a detachment's chapter is defined as which trait you use.

I could easily have my 'Pedro Kantor' actually be named Sir Farquad the Regent of Terra and use him in an IF detachment along with Lysander if I choose. I think your a little too hung up on him being 'Pedro Kantor of the CF'. There is no CF army and/or CT CF. They all fall under the IF category for the purposes of gaming. Having them both in the same detachment is no different than having Lysander and a stock IF Chapter Master.

I agree on the point that the paint scheme would ideally be the same if doing so however, to avoid any confusion as much as anything.

You mean this one "Certain units and special characters have specific Chapter Tactics and can only be taken in detachments of the specified Chapter."?
"A detachment's chapter is defined as which trait you use." I didn't think it that way, but now you mentioned, I think you have make a good point. Although I still think it is strange because of the wording in pg158 and different chapter icon in pg160 & 161.

This defenitely need a FAQ......

MadCamel wrote:
You mean this one "Certain units and special characters have specific Chapter Tactics and can only be taken in detachments of the specified Chapter."?

I mean the fact that you still (obviously) refuse to finish the statement with, as the rulebook says, "as described on page 77." Why are you ignoring that extremely important part of the sentence?
What is on page 77 that the actual rules (and not your invented rules) want you to look at? Please crack open your codex and look.

MadCamel wrote:
This defenitely need a FAQ......

Which is why it is in the SM 6th edition Codex FAQ Submission thread.

Really, pg 77 could not make this any clearer:

Note that you may field models from two different Chapters that have the same Chapter Tactics (such as Ultramarines and Praetors of Orpheus) in the same detachment - these Chapters are so closely affiliated that they count as a single army on the battlefield

Two different Chapters (IF & CF), two different paint jobs, two different symbols, it doesn't matter. Their Chapter Tactics are the same so they get to play together and be buddies.

Bingo d-usa. As much as it might offend some players' idea of what's right or what makes a "different" army, WOG says you can have Lysander in your Crimson Fist army showing off his Imperial Fist colors, and not be forced to be in an Allied Detachment.

Yeah and see this is why i asked this question, because if your argument is that they use the same chapter tactics but different paint jobs, where would that leave people who have painted their army to be Executioners, or Hammers of Dorn, which by the codex use IF chapter tactics. So are you saying that since CF =/= IF then successor chapters =/= CF and IF, so successors would not be able to take Lysander or Pedro??
It seems to me that if you're using a particular CT, you should be able to use any HQs that run that same CT.

 nwabudikemorgan wrote:
Yeah and see this is why i asked this question, because if your argument is that they use the same chapter tactics but different paint jobs, where would that leave people who have painted their army to be Executioners, or Hammers of Dorn, which by the codex use IF chapter tactics. So are you saying that since CF =/= IF then successor chapters =/= CF and IF, so successors would not be able to take Lysander or Pedro??
It seems to me that if you're using a particular CT, you should be able to use any HQs that run that same CT.

You are confusing multiple issues.

-The first is that an army has to have a single chapter tactic. In this case it is Imperial Fists.

-The second is that Lysander and Pedro are specific named characters from two separate chapters, but with the same chapter tactics. So they can be in the same army together.

-The third is that game mechanics wise, every army that uses a specific chapter tactic is a count-as army of that chapter and is able to use any named character of that chapter.
Executioners running IF CT are IF as far as the Codex is concerned and can take Lysander.
Hammers of Dorn running IF CT are IF as far as the Codex is concerned and can take Pedro.

-The fourth is that you then have multiple options of how you want to include that named HQ character.
You can run your Executioners and have a yellow IF Lysander and a blue Pedro running around with all your other guys, and it would be perfectly fine.
You can run your Executioners and have a silver count-as Lysander and a silver count-as Pedro running around, and it would be perfectly fine.

The only time you cannot run an IF successor chapter with any named IF character is if you are using a non-IF Chapter Tactics with your army.

To summarize:

As long as every single model in your army has the exact same Chapter Tactics, you can use any model in the same detachment regardless of what chapter they are painted to represent.

I'm not confusing things, I agree with 100% of what you just said. I'm just stating that I put this question out there to see if there were people who had the opinion that you could not run both lysander and pedro in a IF successor.

I think the issue bothering me is that I thought a detachment is defined by Chapter, not Chapter tactics. I got confused because in Pedro's rule it says Crimson Fist detachment, and he gets Crimson Fist icon on his army list profile. So previously I thought pg 77 is used to explain how to run a SC in a "count as" army. And after re-reading pg 77, I still feel odd, but I wouldn't have an issue if my friend want to run them together.

MadCamel wrote:
I think the issue bothering me is that I thought a detachment is defined by Chapter, not Chapter tactics. I got confused because in Pedro's rule it says Crimson Fist detachment, and he gets Crimson Fist icon on his army list profile. So previously I thought pg 77 is used to explain how to run a SC in a "count as" army. And after re-reading pg 77, I still feel odd, but I wouldn't have an issue if my friend want to run them together.

That's more for deciding who is your Warlord, Lysander or Pedro. So if you want Pedro as your Warlord, it is a Crimson Fist detachment, but you can still have some marines painted as Imperial Fists as they use the same Chapter Tactics. Same thing with if you want Lysander as your Warlord it is an Imperial Fist Detachment, but you can still have Pedro in it. If you wanted to use your Sternguard as Scoring units, just specify that that are supposed to be Crimsons fists and not Imperial Fists(or whichever Chapter you may be using)