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Hi YMDC,

Had a bit of a weird scenario come up last night. What do we do if a vengeance with the battle cannon upgrade has a unit in base contact with it?

Rule 1- vengeance has to autofire at the closest enemy.
Rule 2 - you can't start by placing the template on top of yourself.

Other scenarios with relevance: closest unit is locked in combat (just go for second closest?), or 1 inch from a friendly unit, so that the initial placement would hit a friendly unit.

Yes I'm aware the rules for these suck.

 piping_piper wrote:
Hi YMDC,

Had a bit of a weird scenario come up last night. What do we do if a vengeance with the battle cannon upgrade has a unit in base contact with it?

Rule 1- vengeance has to autofire at the closest enemy.
Rule 2 - you can't start by placing the template on top of yourself.

Other scenarios with relevance: closest unit is locked in combat (just go for second closest?), or 1 inch from a friendly unit, so that the initial placement would hit a friendly unit.

Yes I'm aware the rules for these suck.

ya that ones a sticky situation.

RAW (A) you have to target the closest unit, you can't for whatever reason so it just doesn't shoot. it never gives you permission to select the closest legal target, or that you can pick a new target if the closest is an illegal target.

RAW (B) take the side of: buildings are not models nor units so they can shoot into CC as only models can not shoot into CC.
Along with B blasts only say you can't place the marker if the base or hull of friendly models is under it. it's not a model, so you can place the marker so its over the building.

FUN with RAW. Like always discuss it with your opponent first

Without having read the rules for the battery, if the closest enemy unit is in base contact with the model is it still within LOS of the battery? If the model isnt in LOS and isnt an eligible target for the battle cannon it will come down to the wording of the "shoot closest target" rule.

If the rule states it must shoot closest visible target (and unit assaulting building isnt visible) then you should be able to shoot second closest unit))

If the rules state it must shoot the closest UNIT then you seem to be unable to fire if that unit is in base contact with you and your blasts cannot be placed over yourself

The issue Melcavuk, is that you can upgrade the battery to a battle cannon and that uses the blast marker. The blast marker would have to partially cover the battery if the closet enemy unit is in base combat with the battery and you can't put the blast marker over friendly models (not units, models) so that means you can't shoot at models in base contact with the battery and you can't shoot at something else if there is an enemy in base contact with the battery. Fortifications are defenitly models and are either friendly or enemy. A fortification is definitely a friendly model to itself.

RAW the battery would not be able to fire in this case. The unit in base contact is not locked in combat however (its a building after all) so other units could shoot at it and potentially eliminate the troublesome unit as the nearest enemy and free up the battery to target something else.

Basically, if the all of nearest enemy unit's bases/hull(s) are all within 68mm of the battery the battery won't be able to fire its battle cannon. think of it like the machine spirit is trying to divide by zero

 DJGietzen wrote:
. Fortifications are defenitly model

No, actually Fortifications are not models, unless you can find the unit type for the Fortification...

"In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type" (3)

No unit type? Not a model.

upon further reading I feel you are correct. They are terrain pieces (or just terrain, the terms are interchangeable) and not models. So it should have no trouble dropping the marker above itself, firing and potentionaly blowing it self up.

Now, would the ordnance weapon, assuming it hits the fortification, do extra armor pen?

 DeathReaper wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:
. Fortifications are defenitly model

No, actually Fortifications are not models, unless you can find the unit type for the Fortification...

"In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type" (3)

No unit type? Not a model.

So to be clear are you saying since it's not a model you agree it has no problems what so ever with shooting into a CC?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DJGietzen wrote:
upon further reading I feel you are correct. They are terrain pieces (or just terrain, the terms are interchangeable) and not models. So it should have no trouble dropping the marker above itself, firing and potentionaly blowing it self up.

Now, would the ordnance weapon, assuming it hits the fortification, do extra armor pen?

had more coffee edit:
yes it's a vehicle any time it is shot at. it shot at itself so it's a vehicle.

Second cup edit:
feel free to argue the context of "shoot at" as the VWB is not shooting at itself, it's shooting at the enemy unit, so it's not a vehicle.
also blasts "the UNIT suffers one hit for each MODEL" so if buildings are not units nor models, blasts do nothing to them.

sirlynchmob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:
. Fortifications are defenitly model

No, actually Fortifications are not models, unless you can find the unit type for the Fortification...

"In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type" (3)

No unit type? Not a model.

So to be clear are you saying since it's not a model you agree it has no problems what so ever with shooting into a CC?

I never said that, please do not put words in my mouth.

 DeathReaper wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:
. Fortifications are defenitly model

No, actually Fortifications are not models, unless you can find the unit type for the Fortification...

"In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type" (3)

No unit type? Not a model.

So to be clear are you saying since it's not a model you agree it has no problems what so ever with shooting into a CC?

I never said that, please do not put words in my mouth.

I never said you did, I was asking for clarification because if: Buildings are not models, and only models can not shoot into CC, I wanted to know if you were agreeing with that or not.

So buildings shooting into CC, yes or no?

sirlynchmob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:
. Fortifications are defenitly model

No, actually Fortifications are not models, unless you can find the unit type for the Fortification...

"In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type" (3)

No unit type? Not a model.

So to be clear are you saying since it's not a model you agree it has no problems what so ever with shooting into a CC?

I never said that, please do not put words in my mouth.

I never said you did, I was asking for clarification because if: Buildings are not models, and only models can not shoot into CC, I wanted to know if you were agreeing with that or not.

So buildings shooting into CC, yes or no?

Given the Fortification rules are a mess:

HIWPI: No shooting into CC for anything unless you scatter there or have a specific exception.

 DeathReaper wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:
. Fortifications are defenitly model

No, actually Fortifications are not models, unless you can find the unit type for the Fortification...

"In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type" (3)

No unit type? Not a model.

So to be clear are you saying since it's not a model you agree it has no problems what so ever with shooting into a CC?

I never said that, please do not put words in my mouth.

I never said you did, I was asking for clarification because if: Buildings are not models, and only models can not shoot into CC, I wanted to know if you were agreeing with that or not.

So buildings shooting into CC, yes or no?

Given the Fortification rules are a mess:

HIWPI: No shooting into CC for anything unless you scatter there or have a specific exception.

They're only a mess if you think buildings are not ever considered models or units. I know RAW it sure does seem that way, but this is where it leads us.

If you don't like the outcomes of your argument, maybe you should rethink the position your on it.

Could it be that the word model on that page meant the dictionary definition? and not the other definition for models with wounds? and that GW used the dictionary definition more than previously thought?

The dictionary definition for model would prevent a building from shooting into CC.

sirlynchmob wrote:
They're only a mess if you think buildings are not ever considered models or units. I know RAW it sure does seem that way, but this is where it leads us.

If you don't like the outcomes of your argument, maybe you should rethink the position your on it.

Could it be that the word model on that page meant the dictionary definition? and not the other definition for models with wounds? and that GW used the dictionary definition more than previously thought?

The dictionary definition for model would prevent a building from shooting into CC.

The rules say what they say. The Fortification rules are in fact a mess, and we should figure out a way to play it that works within the system.

The word model is clearly defined in the BRB so we have to use that definition instead of the dictionary definition.