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Total Roster Cost: 1848

HQ: Kor'sarro Khan (1#, 150 pts)
. . 1 Kor'sarro Khan (HQ) [SM], Moondrakkan

: Command Squad (5#, 210 pts)
. . 4 Command Squad [SM], Space Marine Bikes, 4x Grav-gun
. . . . 1 Apothecary [SM]

Troops (5#, 140 pts)
. . 4 Bike Squad (Troops) [SM], 2x Grav-gun
. . . . 1 Biker Sergeant [SM], Melta Bombs

Troops (5#, 140 pts)
. . 4 Bike Squad (Troops) [SM], 2x Grav-gun
. . . . 1 Biker Sergeant [SM], Melta Bombs

Fast Attack: Stormtalon Gunship (1#, 125 pts)
. . 1 Stormtalon Gunship (Fast) [SM], Skyhammer Missile Launcher

HQ: Rune Priest in Power Armour (1#, 135 pts)
. . 1 Rune Priest in Power Armour, Space Marine Bike, Powers: JotWW, LL

Troops: Grey Hunters Pack (11#, 215 pts)
. . 10 Grey Hunters Pack, Mark of the Wulfen, Wolf Standard, 2x Meltagun
. . . . 1 Drop Pod

Troops: Grey Hunters Pack (9#, 180 pts)
. . 8 Grey Hunters Pack, Mark of the Wulfen, Wolf Standard, Flamer
. . . . 1 Drop Pod

Elite: Wolf Guard Pack (7#, 203 pts)
. . 1 Wolf Guard Pack
. . . . 5 Wolf Guard in Power Armour, 5x Combi-Meltagun
. . . . 1 Wolf Guard in Terminator Armour, Chainfist, Heavy Flamer (Goes with Grey Hunters above)
. . . . 1 Drop Pod

Fast Attack: Thunderwolf Cavalry (3#, 210 pts)
. . 1 Thunderwolf Cavalry, Power Fist
. . 1 Thunderwolf Cavalry, Melta Bombs
. . 1 Thunderwolf Cavalry, Storm Shield

Heavy Support: Long Fangs Pack (6#, 140 pts)
. . 5 Long Fangs Pack, 5x Missile Launcher
. . . . 1 Squad Leader


Okay so this is what I've been planning for some time now. As you can see, both detachments could very well be allied detachments. The idea is to use the White Scars as allies in the future, whenever the new SW codex hits. But for now, Khan's Scout is probably too OP to pass on! The list is for casual play and a casual tournament as well. I'd still like to win obviously but I'm not into the WAAC thing. AA is pretty light I know, but the only flyer that really threatens me is of course the infamous Baleturkey, which is not a very common sight in our meta. There might be a couple in the upcoming tournament but that's it. I'm hoping the Talon gets to penetrate their rear.

So anyway, I'm very open to suggestions since I don't have most of the WS models yet and I'm looking for reassurance to go for it.

Thanks for reading!

Anyone? Surely this can't be a perfect list?

Hmm.... Where would you put that space wolves rune priest? He can't utilise that scout move so he's not a good choice to go with white scar bikers. Seems kind of ....lonely, unless going with big bad wolves.

Also, you do have plenty of fast moving units, but how do you plan on keeping objectives on your own table side? Bikes on that are wasted potential imho. Otherwise fairly solid, but like you said, your AA is really light. That stormtalon isn't going to do miracles on it's own.

Hellturkey is bad for anything space marine gooey, but you could still benefit from having some units large enough to hold objecives. 10 Space marines are tough to handle, or maximum sized bike squad. 4 bikes are weak in my eyes.

But that's my 5 cents.

Heh, somewhat similar to white I'm doing (though I'm doing Space Wolves as the Primary Detachment). The only change I can suggest without overhauling your list entirely would be to drop the Meltabombs on the Thunderwolf Cavalry and put one on your Rune Priest. Here's why:

1. Wound allocation doesn't work that way anymore.
2. Strength 5 + Rending will rock 99% of the vehicles in the game. Only the Land Raider is iffy.
3. The Rune Priest should have them so you can attach him to your Command Squad. He benefits from their Hit & Run (and I think FNP...)

You have less scoring bodies than I do at the same point level, but your Command Squad and TWC will do damage in different ways and draw a lot of fire.

I like the list.


Watch out for a couple of things though, your rune priest in any white scar allied detachment can be focus fired, because his cover save will always be worse, might want to consider 2+ armor because of this.


Also watch out for people who think khan can't join the thunderwolves to give them scout, it may not be fluffy at all but nothing in RAW says he can't

I would also playtest dropping 250 points out of the list to get a chapter master on bike, having him with the thunderwolves would be brutal, not only because he can soak things for the wolves to get them past mass shooting, but once you are close enough to charge you can break into 2 units that have a reasonable chance in CC against alot of units.

T-wolf entry says only fen wolves or t-wolves can join a unit with a t-wolf, unless something was faqed.

Ok thanks for the input guys. The TWC is the "moving" part in the list that I'm not sure about. Could be replaced with more troops to keep home objectives as well? I had the understanding that a bike char could join them but if you can refer a place that forbids it I might lose them.

A Chapter master was something I contemplated but he doesn't open Command Squads and no Scout so he had to go...

Idea of the RP is to go with some bikers and set up big baddies for Jaws with concussive grav guns. Don't really know how other HQ options would fit in the list... Maybe a divination RP to buff Long Fangs?

 wileythenord wrote:
T-wolf entry says only fen wolves or t-wolves can join a unit with a t-wolf, unless something was faqed.

The exact entry your refering to prohibits I.C. with a thunderwolf from joining any non wolf units, it says nothing about non thunderwolf I.C. from joining thunderwolves.

Its gamey, but very useful in this situation.


You would want khan and the Chapter Master.

The runepriest is fine and very useful, just know that you wont be able to protect him with white scar bikers therefore giving him a 2+ is very useful.

tiber55 wrote:

 wileythenord wrote:
T-wolf entry says only fen wolves or t-wolves can join a unit with a t-wolf, unless something was faqed.

The exact entry your refering to prohibits I.C. with a thunderwolf from joining any non wolf units, it says nothing about non thunderwolf I.C. from joining thunderwolves.

Its gamey, but very useful in this situation.


You would want khan and the Chapter Master.

The runepriest is fine and very useful, just know that you wont be able to protect him with white scar bikers therefore giving him a 2+ is very useful.

What would you drop to fit the CM?

tiber55 wrote:
I like the list.


Watch out for a couple of things though, your rune priest in any white scar allied detachment can be focus fired, because his cover save will always be worse, might want to consider 2+ armor because of this.


Also watch out for people who think khan can't join the thunderwolves to give them scout, it may not be fluffy at all but nothing in RAW says he can't

I would also playtest dropping 250 points out of the list to get a chapter master on bike, having him with the thunderwolves would be brutal, not only because he can soak things for the wolves to get them past mass shooting, but once you are close enough to charge you can break into 2 units that have a reasonable chance in CC against alot of units.

I run a Rune Priest in a Command Squad with Khan too and it gives Eldar players hell

I ran to this problem as well, BUT there is a solution (even if gimmicky). All you have to do is turbo boost the Rune Priest in the shooting phase but remain in coherency with the rest of the squad. There's no minimum distance for declaring turbo moves anymore so the slightest scoot can work. This bumps his cover up to 4+ thus negating focus fire. The only time you'll run into any issues is should you happen to want to assault, but that will be rare. I run all divination on the Rune Priest so, his shooting phase is pretty much nil anyways.

astro_nomicon wrote:
This bumps his cover up to 4+ thus negating focus fire.

Negative.

The unit has to decide if its going to shoot or Turbo Boost. It is not an individual model's action. If he's part of a White Scar unit of bikes, the White Scars get +1 to their Jink Save. So they all have a 4++ and he has a 5++. If you decide to Turbo Boost, they'll have a 3++ and he'll have a 4++.

Your opponent can still say they are using Focus Fire on models with a 4++ or worse and you are stuck taking all the wounds on your Rune Priest until he dies.

Unfortunately there is no way around this. Taking Runic Armor can help mitigate the negative effects; you'd be surprised what a 2+ save can survive.

He can still LoS the wounds off.

 cowmonaut wrote:

astro_nomicon wrote:
This bumps his cover up to 4+ thus negating focus fire.

Negative.

The unit has to decide if its going to shoot or Turbo Boost. It is not an individual model's action. If he's part of a White Scar unit of bikes, the White Scars get +1 to their Jink Save. So they all have a 4++ and he has a 5++. If you decide to Turbo Boost, they'll have a 3++ and he'll have a 4++.

Your opponent can still say they are using Focus Fire on models with a 4++ or worse and you are stuck taking all the wounds on your Rune Priest until he dies.

Unfortunately there is no way around this. Taking Runic Armor can help mitigate the negative effects; you'd be surprised what a 2+ save can survive.

Debatable. I have pored over the rules for LoS, focus fire, and turbo boosting since taking this unit and it seems to me that turbo boosting the RP, and not the rest of the unit, is legitimate. I could not find in the rules that turbo boosting is a unit wide obligation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Neither the jink special rule, nor the entry for turbo boosting in the bike & jetbike model type mention that a UNIT must EITHER turboboost OR shoot in the shooting phase, only that models that have turbo boosted cannot shoot, charge or commit any other voluntary action for the rest of the turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ricter wrote:
He can still LoS the wounds off.

except no unfortunately. if the enemy declares FF on your RP you can't allocate wounds to models in the unit with a better cover save (the rest of the command squad will have 4+ cover, your RP, 5+). It's a weird instance of specific rules colliding, but RAW you can't LoS those wounds. See above tactic

Well, unless I bring that weakness up, nobody in our group is going to figure out that FF thing. I mean we have played tens of games in this edition and FF has been used maybe once or twice. It's just not a rule that is commonly used and utilized in our group, mainly because it is highly situational and when the situation presents itself it gets forgotten.

That said, Runic Armor sounds like a good plan anyway.

So basically people have said either to take more scoring bodies or take a CM. Not really sure where to pinch points for either. The TWC still seems iffy, mainly because it's just 6 wounds that are going to get focused. But on the other hand the TWC would be the perfect delivery mechanism for a kitted out CM...

except no unfortunately. if the enemy declares FF on your RP you can't allocate wounds to models in the unit with a better cover save (the rest of the command squad will have 4+ cover, your RP, 5+). It's a weird instance of specific rules colliding, but RAW you can't LoS those wounds. See above tactic

No it's not. Focus Fire prevents allocation. LoS avoids allocation altogether, quite specifically saying while the wound is allocated to the first model, it is resolved against another. There is a thorough discussion on bols for this as well. Nothing in RAW prevents this, so don't cite RAW. Regardless for the op I'd suggest you find out how your flgs would rule it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was considering a very similar list by chance. TWC seem nice on paper, but compare 3 twc to a bike command squad w/ apoth. Both clock in at 150 pts.

The twc bring 15 s5 rending attacks vs 15 s4 for the bcs. But the the bcs has 7.5 effective wounds because of FnP, gives FnP to characters, boosted jink save, cheaper storm shields, skilled rider, better weapon options and better/more HoW. I feel it's hard to justify the small assault boost over all those advantages of the bcs.

astro_nomicon wrote:
Debatable. I have pored over the rules for LoS, focus fire, and turbo boosting since taking this unit and it seems to me that turbo boosting the RP, and not the rest of the unit, is legitimate. I could not find in the rules that turbo boosting is a unit wide obligation.

Neither the jink special rule, nor the entry for turbo boosting in the bike & jetbike model type mention that a UNIT must EITHER turboboost OR shoot in the shooting phase, only that models that have turbo boosted cannot shoot, charge or commit any other voluntary action for the rest of the turn.

That's because you are looking at the rules backwards

In the rules for the Shooting Phase you have two actions that your units can take: Run or Shoot. The whole unit has to do one or the other (or nothing). Turbo-Boost is an Advanced rules for "Run" that applies to Bikes and Jetbikes. It replaces the "roll a d6 for distance" rule with "move up to 12/24" instead. You still have to declare if the unit is "Running" (Turbo Boosting) instead of Shooting.

Ricter wrote:

except no unfortunately. if the enemy declares FF on your RP you can't allocate wounds to models in the unit with a better cover save (the rest of the command squad will have 4+ cover, your RP, 5+). It's a weird instance of specific rules colliding, but RAW you can't LoS those wounds. See above tactic

No it's not. Focus Fire prevents allocation. LoS avoids allocation altogether, quite specifically saying while the wound is allocated to the first model, it is resolved against another. There is a thorough discussion on bols for this as well. Nothing in RAW prevents this, so don't cite RAW. Regardless for the op I'd suggest you find out how your flgs would rule it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was considering a very similar list by chance. TWC seem nice on paper, but compare 3 twc to a bike command squad w/ apoth. Both clock in at 150 pts.

The twc bring 15 s5 rending attacks vs 15 s4 for the bcs. But the the bcs has 7.5 effective wounds because of FnP, gives FnP to characters, boosted jink save, cheaper storm shields, skilled rider, better weapon options and better/more HoW. I feel it's hard to justify the small assault boost over all those advantages of the bcs.

I took this to YMDC a while back and got quite the opposite response. LoS does not entirely avoid allocation. In one instance the rule refers to resolving and in another refers to allocation, so yes this does involve RAW. Its hairy at best, but I'm inclined to say you can't LoS Focus Fire (despite totally wanting to be able to). You can check out the discussion here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/555552.page

cowmonaut wrote:

astro_nomicon wrote:
Debatable. I have pored over the rules for LoS, focus fire, and turbo boosting since taking this unit and it seems to me that turbo boosting the RP, and not the rest of the unit, is legitimate. I could not find in the rules that turbo boosting is a unit wide obligation.

Neither the jink special rule, nor the entry for turbo boosting in the bike & jetbike model type mention that a UNIT must EITHER turboboost OR shoot in the shooting phase, only that models that have turbo boosted cannot shoot, charge or commit any other voluntary action for the rest of the turn.

That's because you are looking at the rules backwards

In the rules for the Shooting Phase you have two actions that your units can take: Run or Shoot. The whole unit has to do one or the other (or nothing). Turbo-Boost is an Advanced rules for "Run" that applies to Bikes and Jetbikes. It replaces the "roll a d6 for distance" rule with "move up to 12/24" instead. You still have to declare if the unit is "Running" (Turbo Boosting) instead of Shooting.

Welp looks like ol' Runie's pretty screwed.

I personally think he'd be fine. What we have is two separate rules that supersede standard wound allocation. They aren't interacting with each other at all as far as I'm concerned.

Focus fire: Instead of standard wound allocation, only allocate wounds to models with the chosen cover save.

Look out, Sir!: Instead of standard wound allocation, the character can make a roll to pass the wound on.

That's how I would play it and I think most of the people at my LGS would play it. GW isn't the best with having clear rules though so who knows.

But what am I saying, this is army lists not YMDC!

As far as your list is concerned, TWC die too fast in my experience to anything with a decent str, and 3+ isn't that reliable. If you wanted to deck out a command squad for close combat it'd be a better investment than TWC, and even then it's not that good imo.

If it were me, I'd try to fit as many bikes as possible in, and simply use the SW for the psychic defense/JAWS and have a few simple grey hunter squads hold your backline in rhinos or razorbacks.

Yeah I'm really not trying to be a rules lawyer here (mostly because I'm terrible at it). I only brought it up because those specific rulings do have a significant impact on how the army functions.

Besides that, I agree with Diablo. TWC just get moved off the table way too easily. I much prefer combi-wep WG and Grey Hunters in drop pods. True, they could work well as backfield objective grabbers if you put them in rhinos, but hell that's not my style. I like to drop them in the enemy's face for an even more decisive alpha strike in conjunction with scouting bikes. This does make life a little more difficult when you have second turn, but from my experience it's still totally do-able. You can always deploy them on the table in cover and rain down empty pods.

For my SW allies I run a RP on a bike, WG w/ 7 combi melta, and 2x 10 man GH squads w/ 2 flamer, MotW and a Standard. Not exactly cheap, but they synergize w/ grav bikers really well: Psychic buffs/defense from RP, Nuke unit from WG, Scoring/anti-horde/Countercharge from GH

Ok thanks a lot, this thread has been very informative. In another thread somebody asked about command squads vs bike squads, and somebody pointed out that point for point they are pretty close to eachother, whereas the normal bikers have ablative wounds and are scoring to boot! So I'm probably going to replace the Command squad with normal bikers. TWC is going to go for more AA (another Talon or a Stalker/Hunter).

I don't face too much infantry (outside of their transports), so two squads of double flamer GH seem a bit overkill, although they would really help with the occasional horde list. Not really sure if I should take melta or plasma on the other pod though. I really don't like passive backfield Grey Hunters, their place is in the enemy's face.