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I'm fairly new to the 40k tabletop and decided I wanted to start a CSM army.
However, my motivation has dwindled considerably, when I read all the disscussions about the army.
Most (or at least, a lot of) people seem to agree that the Codex is a steaming pile of gak.

Is that really true, or has the internet blown the negativity out of proportion?
I'm definitly not a win at all costs guy, but I want my stuff to be at least viable.

Threads filled to the brim with chaos players "jumping ship" and venting about how games workshop shafts them over and over again and overall bitterness is really offputting.
Should I just give up and try something else (I like orks too), or stick to the plan?

edit: spelling

My opinion:
Orks are soon to get a new Codex. If the rumors are true, expect a lot of changes. Everything that you like of them can be scratched off, never to be seen again. If you want to get Orks, wait until the new Codex arrive.

Chaos is in bad shape right now. During the third edition the army got a lot of love from GW and the number of players soared. But then the people developing the game changed and Chaos was nerfed, both in-game and in the background. There is also a clear breach between the background left and the current Codex, so if you like Chaos because, say, the Black Library novels, you are in for a serious disappointment.

That being said, it all depends of why you chose the army in the first place. If it was the aesthetics or the background, go for it.

If you want to go competitive you have three options:
1) Forget the background and take the few powerful units. Heldrakes and cultists are your friends.
2) Use the highly customizable "Codex: Space Marines" as a "count as" for your Chaos Space Marines. Model them as Chaos but play them like loyalist.
3) Create an army following the background or your personal preferences. Expect to lose a lot.

All options have the potential of causing bad feelings in the people you play with. If you use heldrakes and cultists, you will be acused of being a "power-gamer". If you use Chaos SM counting as SM, you will be accused of "jumping on the bandwagon". If you try to go fluffy, you will be accused of wasting the time of your opponents and being a "fluffy-bunny". All of this assuming you play with jerks. If you play with your friends, they would eventually respect your decision.

Good luck

Agreed with da001,CSM is not in a happy spot right now, if you want to still play the them take one Helldrake, and plague marines or noise marines.

If you want to play competitively here are your options:
-tons of cultists
-Helldrakes
-Khorne Lord on Juggernaut with spawn
-Noise Marines
-Plague Marines
-Typhus who confers the zombie rule to your cultists
-Oblitorators

Similarly I would Only take one or two of these units if you just want to play a game with friends unless you want to run a themed Nurgle or Slannesh force.

Regular CSM are supposedly bad but that is when they are compared to their other units.

I have tried running a Warpsmith list with lots of daemon engines, but alas it does nothing but squat currently, which is very unfortunate imo as I love the Idea of Warpsmiths and all of the CSM Daemon engines (imo if I am going to use imperial vehicles I would have just started Vanilla marines, but that's just my opinion) but unless I fill up my heavy support on Oblits I may as well throw the idea down the drain.

I personally am unsatisfied with the CSM Codex, but that's mainly because I see all the other codex's that have been released since and saw that they have rules that break core mechanic's of the game for their army's advantage (such as Supporting Fire and Battle Focus for example) and I look at my codex and I take a step back and think "WTF am I still playing these for?" and end up just getting demoralised in the end.

I can understand that all the "jumping ship" seems off putting but we CSM players do have a point though, and in all honesty it depends on how your friends want to play the game, if they want to play a game with just stuff they want to use, make campaigns and just want to sit down and have a few drinks and have a laugh, by all means play CSM as the codex is designed for that use of play, but if you all want to play competitively, I would suggest another army tbh, as you going to get bored really quickly using the same play styles over and over again tbh.

I, personally, don't agree with the common sentiment of the internet. I have a lot of fun playing chaos, and I have 8000 points of it, so I'm always mixing it up. I don't run net lists, and I own no heldrakes or plague marines.

Compared to many armies, I think that people forget that Chaos are combat monsters. Our HQ's are some of the best around, especially when you consider daemon weapons adding 2-6 attacks every round at AP2, or AP4 with toughness squisher.

I win about 1/2 the time in my group, and I run things like a full unit of Warp Talons with a Jump Lord with the Black Mace and Burning Brand. Played carefully so that they get in CC turn 2, they utterly destroy anything they fight, especially with the Mark of Slaanesh I give them, which almost universally makes them go first. Yes I run Obliterators cuz I love the models, but I give them Mark of Tzeentch to much surprise. I'm not a fan of Nurgle so much, so the only units I run with them are a normal squad, and my Bikers. Khorne Berzerkers rushing out of a Land Raider is lots of fun. For flyers, I one or two Daemon Princes, and a FW Storm Eagle. If you need an even better gunship, the new FW Raptor (not the jump troops) gives Chaos the best load-out options (36" range for all, 7 S6 AP3, two independent Reaper Batteries that are copies of ADL quad gun, and missiles.

I love the fluff, and even write stories about their background, and incorporate the wins and losses vs the people I play. Terrible Fluffy Bunny, but fun nonetheless.

Perhaps I just have unorthodox tactics that work, or maybe the codex is not as bad as people say. No one could convince me to abandon my army.

Thanks for the replies.

I dunno what to do, honestly. Currently I only have the models from Dark Vengeance, which I got as a birthday present, so no money has been put into the army yet.

I'm currently leaning towards just painting them up to an acceptable standard and maybe sell the DA stuff.

The Codex does have problems, but depending on your stance you might not care so much about them.
The root of the problem is that Chaos has an incredibly detailed backstory covering the origins of a full 9 Legions. We have swathes of background detailing the preferences and styles of each, the roles played in the most brutal civil war of man's history, and the subsequent descent into anarchy over 10,000 years of struggle. It is awesome, and every Legion has a full coverage behind it.

Unfortunately the rules do not provide justice to the background. Your galaxy-conquering monsters are reflected as standard Marines, minus all the special rules. All of the Legions are stapled together under a ruleset that is so vague, it arguably fails to reflect any of them. The army lacks a consistent design ethos without really holding an identity of their own. Individual units and Gods have themes, but as an army it boils down to a mishmash of individual units rather than any sense of teamwork or consistent strengths. The book feels rushed and 'tame' compared to the books that followed, and it will always live in the shadow of 3.5 as an example of what Chaos players want in a Codex. Finally, the Codex has horrible internal balance such that barely half of the units are any good, and even within that a quarter are so far above average that they skew the army into always following the same template.

However, in terms of raw muscle or power, it can hold it's own. Nobody has a problem with Plague Marines and Heldrakes being too weak, the problem is that this is not an army that bears any resemblance to the background. Similarly while it is made of strong units, it is very much a case of deploying and the army playing itself, with very little room for tricks or tactics outside the army list creation stage.

Competitive- Yes.
Good background- Gods yes.
Able to combine the 2? Not unless your general has a thing for Plague Marines, Heldrakes and Obliterators.

they don't realy win much , unless they have realy favorable match ups and terrain in their favor. marines vs eldar or tau ,even done with helldrakes and the other power units still lose.

especially with the Mark of Slaanesh I give them, which almost universally makes them go first.

you friends aren't using LR builds, flyer transports , +2sv units or cover ?

Mozzamanx wrote:
The Codex does have problems, but depending on your stance you might not care so much about them.
The root of the problem is that Chaos has an incredibly detailed backstory covering the origins of a full 9 Legions. We have swathes of background detailing the preferences and styles of each, the roles played in the most brutal civil war of man's history, and the subsequent descent into anarchy over 10,000 years of struggle. It is awesome, and every Legion has a full coverage behind it.

Unfortunately the rules do not provide justice to the background. Your galaxy-conquering monsters are reflected as standard Marines, minus all the special rules. All of the Legions are stapled together under a ruleset that is so vague, it arguably fails to reflect any of them. The army lacks a consistent design ethos without really holding an identity of their own. Individual units and Gods have themes, but as an army it boils down to a mishmash of individual units rather than any sense of teamwork or consistent strengths. The book feels rushed and 'tame' compared to the books that followed, and it will always live in the shadow of 3.5 as an example of what Chaos players want in a Codex. Finally, the Codex has horrible internal balance such that barely half of the units are any good, and even within that a quarter are so far above average that they skew the army into always following the same template.

However, in terms of raw muscle or power, it can hold it's own. Nobody has a problem with Plague Marines and Heldrakes being too weak, the problem is that this is not an army that bears any resemblance to the background. Similarly while it is made of strong units, it is very much a case of deploying and the army playing itself, with very little room for tricks or tactics outside the army list creation stage.

Competitive- Yes.
Good background- Gods yes.
Able to combine the 2? Not unless your general has a thing for Plague Marines, Heldrakes and Obliterators.

QFT

Have an Exalt.

If you want to play Chaos Marines then I recommend getting into 2nd ed 40k,the rules are a little complicated and may be a little harder to find the correct books, but it is one of the best editions of 40k imho.

Tacowrap wrote:
Thanks for the replies.

I dunno what to do, honestly. Currently I only have the models from Dark Vengeance, which I got as a birthday present, so no money has been put into the army yet.

I'm currently leaning towards just painting them up to an acceptable standard and maybe sell the DA stuff.

Were they stolen? I believe you meant to say, non of your money was put into it.

Lets turn this around. Instead of saying the internet says that CSM suck, what does the internet say is the best army to play, and you should try it? It will get you to think if you want to really play that army just because it's the "best" to play. Will you have fun with this "best" list? If not, why doesn't it appeal to you? Also you will see, just because the best list doesn't appeal to you, the worst list might actually appeal to you, or something inbetween.

Once you do this, forget what the internet says. Pick an army that you like. What fluff or stories/history you like about the army? What look do you like? What play style do you like? This will really be important. You don't want to play a Close Combat assault army with a shooty army. For example, you wouldn't want to use Tau for an assault army with little shooting. Also do you need to win? How about loosing? Is playing for fun or tournies important for you?

There is more to picking an army just for winning. Winning will become boring for you. Would you like a challenge? I guess since you are new, you need to learn the rules. Since you already have Dark Vengeance, Space Marines is a good place for you to start. Start a small army, learn how to play, learn what you like and go on from there. Most people usually have more than one army.

Were they stolen? I believe you meant to say, non of your money was put into it.

Yeah, that's what I meant. None of MY money has been put into it.

Lets turn this around. Instead of saying the internet says that CSM suck, what does the internet say is the best army to play, and you should try it? It will get you to think if you want to really play that army just because it's the "best" to play. Will you have fun with this "best" list? If not, why doesn't it appeal to you? Also you will see, just because the best list doesn't appeal to you, the worst list might actually appeal to you, or something inbetween.

Once you do this, forget what the internet says. Pick an army that you like. What fluff or stories/history you like about the army? What look do you like? What play style do you like? This will really be important. You don't want to play a Close Combat assault army with a shooty army. For example, you wouldn't want to use Tau for an assault army with little shooting. Also do you need to win? How about loosing? Is playing for fun or tournies important for you?

There is more to picking an army just for winning. Winning will become boring for you. Would you like a challenge? I guess since you are new, you need to learn the rules. Since you already have Dark Vengeance, Space Marines is a good place for you to start. Start a small army, learn how to play, learn what you like and go on from there. Most people usually have more than one army.

Chaos appeal to me because the models look cool and the fluff is interesting.
I like a challenge, but not to the point of frustration.