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I am trying to figure out what to do with my remaining points and/or if I should switch anything up. More Bikes? Another Jetseer? Do I have enough anti-tank? Do I need a better way of dealing with flyers or should I just ignore them or shoot a large volume of shots? I am not really a fan of the Crimson Hunter or Fire Prism at this point. They always seem to be pretty lackluster for their points, and most times the Crimson Hunter just dies horribly to interceptor. I have also considered an aegis defense line, but I think adding a static element to my very mobile army may hinder me. At the same time it gives me some interceptor and anti-air. Should I run 3 squads of 3 jetbikes and attach the farseer to one, or should I combine to have a squad of 6 to go with the farseer? Is a Jetbike Warlock worth its points with only leadership 8?

HQ:
Farseer: Jetbike, Singing Spear - 120

TROOPS:
Windrider Jetbike Squad (3), Shuriken Cannon - 61
Windrider Jetbike Squad (3), Shuriken Cannon - 61
Windrider Jetbike Squad (3), Shuriken Cannon - 61
Guardian Defenders (10) - 90
-Wave Serpent, TL Scatter Laser, Holofields - 135
Dire Avengers (5) - 65
-Wave Serpent, TL Scatter Laser, Holofields - 135
Dire Avengers (5) - 65
-Wave Serpent, TL Scatter Laser, Holofields - 135

FAST ATTACK:
Warp Spiders (10) - 190
Warp Spiders (5) - 95

HEAVY SUPPORT:
War Walkers (3), Bright Lance, Bright Lance - 210
Wraithknight, Wraithcannons - 240

Currently at 1663 pts.

Honestly just take wave serpents. Ive been in 3 tournaments now (since the new eldar book) where the guy that wins every game has 5 to 6 of them. They are just busted.

Here's a list

Spiritseer

4x5 avengers in serpents with holo, scat.

2x5 dragons in serpents with holo, scat

2 wraithknights

Seriously it just walks through 90% of what people come up with.

What does a spiritseer bring to this army? There are no wraith units to be made into troops, which seems to be the main reason to use it. Also, using 2 wave serpents with a suicide unit such as fire dragons also seems wasteful.

Spiritseer is there as a cheap HQ and dragon/avenger buff (2+ save dragons are awesome), with the spare 10pts you could easily make it an autarch with a fusiongun instead and bolster a unit.

And fire dragons are not as suicidal anymore, the 3+ save they got goes a long way, they are there for the express purpose of dealing with armour and monstrous creatures.

Thanks Ravenous D for your input. I will consider what you have said. Does anyone else have any opinions on how to improve my army? FlingitNow? Serling? I am looking for input from as many people as possible.

Could drop a unit of bikes to free up enough extra points points for a wraithknight?

Given what's in this list already I would probably just squeeze in another serpent of it's for tourneys. There are 3 good lists imo, serpent spam, seer council and balanced, this one is obviously leaning toward serpent spam.

with extra points i would make your farseer a mantle sear.
better for him to have the 2++ cover that he can reroll than to have a 3 man squad with him.

Also depends on the goal of the list, is this for tournaments or for regular fun play? That list I posted is for tournaments because its pretty much point, click, win.

I few other things on your list:

10 warp spiders is total overkill, and they are no more suicidal then dragons, same toughness, same save. Only difference is that spiders are insanely fast. You'll be surprised at how fast they die though. Personally Id go with 5 with exarch armed with spinnerette rifle and fast shot. 130pts and kills 5 marines on average. Not too shabby.

You might want to consider shining spears, crazy I know, but they actually have the best points to damage ratio in the Eldar book (maybe the game) they wreck vehicles and infantry alike, even 3+ save MCs have a difficult time, you can change that farseer over and he adds tons of attacks to the unit as well as plasma and haywire grenades, toss on a fusion gun to boot, 105pts of pure marine killing.

The farseer seems out of place, the only unit he can go with is the jetbikes and they wont provide enough meat shield while he is casting guide and prescience on the walkers and knight (I assume, because reliable powers are better then random). There is the mantle seer but:

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
with extra points i would make your farseer a mantle sear.
better for him to have the 2++ cover that he can reroll than to have a 3 man squad with him.

With all the ignores cover from Tau and Eldar he doesn't last that long, its basically giving away slay the warlord to those armies. I like the unit as a buff peg, but it isn't viable against everyone.

 Ravenous D wrote:
Also depends on the goal of the list, is this for tournaments or for regular fun play? That list I posted is for tournaments because its pretty much point, click, win.

I few other things on your list:

10 warp spiders is total overkill, and they are no more suicidal then dragons, same toughness, same save. Only difference is that spiders are insanely fast. You'll be surprised at how fast they die though. Personally Id go with 5 with exarch armed with spinnerette rifle and fast shot. 130pts and kills 5 marines on average. Not too shabby.

You might want to consider shining spears, crazy I know, but they actually have the best points to damage ratio in the Eldar book (maybe the game) they wreck vehicles and infantry alike, even 3+ save MCs have a difficult time, you can change that farseer over and he adds tons of attacks to the unit as well as plasma and haywire grenades, toss on a fusion gun to boot, 105pts of pure marine killing.

The farseer seems out of place, the only unit he can go with is the jetbikes and they wont provide enough meat shield while he is casting guide and prescience on the walkers and knight (I assume, because reliable powers are better then random). There is the mantle seer but:

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
with extra points i would make your farseer a mantle sear.
better for him to have the 2++ cover that he can reroll than to have a 3 man squad with him.

With all the ignores cover from Tau and Eldar he doesn't last that long, its basically giving away slay the warlord to those armies. I like the unit as a buff peg, but it isn't viable against everyone.

fist thing, no list is a point click win list.
you will lose eventually, no matter how good your list is.

as it is, dragons arent a great choice for anti armor.
war walerks are better. dropping 110 point on a unit that will shoot at a tank at quickest by turn 2, isnt that great.
war walkers put out much more fire power, and by turn one.
2 5 man spuider squads with upgrades is a waste. go for 5 man, with no upgrades. you are using your spiders wrong. they arent used for anti meq. 5 man sqauds are used for anto armor. 10 deep striking s7 shots into back armour will kill basically any vechcle, for only 95 points. spending a 100+ points on a unit to kill 5 manrines, is shabby.

the far seer woudnt be out of place with motlg, as he can go wherever and boost whatever unit.
yes tau ignore cover, and yes so do serpents, but they have to see thye model first.
and it is very very easy to hide ONE model behind a wall. and 99% of bourds will haev a wal to hide behind.

If this is for competitive playing just go for serpent spam you can't lose, i did 6 serpents in 1850pts and i took out a 4 riptide list.

If you are looking for somthing a bit more fun just take bikes in sizes of 6 with two cannons and a warlock in each for conceal,
it isn't the most broken list out there but it is super fun.

Wraith knight spam on the other hand is fun and will help you win almost any game, with three wraith knights running around plain just shoot tanks and assult stuff and watch as you don't die.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:


fist thing, no list is a point click win list.
you will lose eventually, no matter how good your list is.

Oh I agree, it just so happens that list will walk through a great deal of people and requires very little effort to wield, hence point, click, win. Everything loses eventually, but 70% success rate vs 95%+ is a big difference.

The rest of your post is way off, I wont even bother, lots of assumptions, claiming one of the most efficient marine killers in the game is bad, and using 190pts to deepstrike into the middle of enemy armies to kill 1 tank should summarize it pretty well though

Yep.

For your list since you're sitting at 1650ish, you need consider what do you want your list to accomplish.

The impression that I get from your list is a more balanced list that packs all the tools you need. You may not win as easily, but you also won't lose as hard when against an unfavorable match up.

Personally I do not find serpent spam to be worth it. I think after a while high Street no ap ignore cover shots are being wasted. Also for over 1k points you are only getting 4.5*6=27 shots on average per turn. If you want that do 3x3 walkers with scatters. That's 4*6*3 = 72 shots per turn.

Yes wave serpents are good, not saying they aren't. I'm just saying you only need so many ignore cover shots. After a certain point the points are better allocated elsewhere.

I usually only take 2 serpents (I occasionally also take a night spinner). The sweet spot is 2-3 tough to kill av12.

For your list: at 1850 you need 5 troops. Cover your bases. The6 lance shots from walkers is nice, but lack flexibility. I have been gravitating more towards wraith knights. I used to use walkers eexclusively, but no one takes more than 1 land raider in a competitive environment. If they do 2 wraithknights can easily handle it. Anything that is not av 14, you throw wave serpents and warp spiders at it. The list I would run that is similar to the base of what you have is:

1850
HQ
155 far seer - jet bike, mantle

Elite 0

Troops
2x225 guardians x 10 - wave serpent with holofields and TL scatter
3x51 wind rider jet bikes x3

FA
3x152 warp spiders x8

HS
2x240 wraithknight - standard with heavy D's
155 night spinner w/ holofields + crystal targetting matrix

Total 1849

The mantle is on far seer b/c the 3x3 jet bikes are not large enough to hide a far seer. Plus if the go for far seer that is a turn of not going for the real threats of spiders, guardians, wraith knight, and night spinner. The spinner with crystal tar getting is so that you can turbo boost and demolish an entrenched tau/IG with a massive torrent flamer (at str7/8 vs low init + vehicles)

Run everything as cheap as you can because as a specialist army you don't have as many bodies. Instead of investing an extra 30-40+ points to make a specialized unit okay at covering a weakness, it is usually better to just get a whole another unit that specializes in that weakness.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also no cannons on bikes. The only reason you want those is to be able to get some stuff with AV. The units are solo small focus on hiding them and getting late objectives or supporting fire.

Serpent shield has a way of luring people into looking at the Wave Serpent solely as a gunboat. While true, he is a very potent engine of destruction, the reason why you're paying 120-145 points for each is their transport capacity.

Use your Wave Serpent to the fullest, not just as a source of good dakka, which it is, but not restricted to just that. A lot of the complaints about Serpent spam also come from that.

To be honest, I'd add 6 naked Swooping Hawks instead of the small squad of Warp Spiders, which gives you more anti-AV14 that your list needs, replace those BLs on the War walkers with Scatterlasers for more utility and versatility. What to do with the rest of the points though, well, you have a lot of good choices open to you. Anything from Heavy Support, Shadow Weavers or a Nightspinner, for instance, or a squad of Shining Spears for counter-assault or backfield harrasment. You could even drop a Guardian squad from the Wave Serpent and get a sizable Dark Reaper squad for it, then put your Farseer with them, on foot, to buff them(Perfect Timing makes this unit evil).

 Ravenous D wrote:

 ninjafiredragon wrote:


fist thing, no list is a point click win list.
you will lose eventually, no matter how good your list is.

Oh I agree, it just so happens that list will walk through a great deal of people and requires very little effort to wield, hence point, click, win. Everything loses eventually, but 70% success rate vs 95%+ is a big difference.

The rest of your post is way off, I wont even bother, lots of assumptions, claiming one of the most efficient marine killers in the game is bad, and using 190pts to deepstrike into the middle of enemy armies to kill 1 tank should summarize it pretty well though

just makinhg sure you didnt think it was a instant win list.

i wasnt talking about a 10 man warp spider sqaud deep stiking to take out vehcles, i meant a 5 man squad. 95 points to easily kill up to 150 point tank is quite nice in fact.

dont know where your getting im assuming anything from, because im not, besides that a gaming bourd would have a 4" tall wall/building/anything for a mantle sear to hide behind. which is basically every bourd.

Thanks to everyone for the feedback. The plan is to eventually play in tournaments, but I am currently just playing with friends. We are trying to help each other make well rounded armies instead of just building a list specific to who you would be playing. I am going to go through the posts in order with my thoughts:

@ j.d.hart - Dropping a unit of bikes for another WK could be good, but I was a little worried about objective grabbing with only 2 squads of 3 bikes. The WK has proven to be quite good for me so far. However, it is also an expensive model in real money, and I only have one currently. I was also wondering how the seer council works now with all of the powers being random? Any insight on this would be nice. What would your example of a balanced list contain?


@ ninjafiredragon - The use of the mantleseer is somewhat vexing to me. What is the point of keeping him out of sight behind a wall if you can't see your own units for buffing before moving? Doesn't that defeat the whole purpose of using a farseer? I know if the units are behind him, he can buff those, but the ones that really need the guide/prescience/whatever else I roll will probably be in front of him (ie WK, spiders). My most difficult opponents so far are Tau and Necrons. Maybe I am just thinking about this wrong, but a bit more explanation would be good.

@ RavenousD - I have also considered splitting the 10 man unit of spiders into 2x5. I feel that the exarch with upgrades is not really worth it when you could spend similar points to just add another spider. I have seen some posts including shining spears, but I do not have the models, and I am not quite sure how to use them effectively. How many spears would be needed to be effective? Are they any good if the opponent does not have a MC? On the note of the farseer, I am not sure how to keep him safe. How many bikes would he have to be with to be considered safe? Would a warlock for conceal be a good idea or waste of points?

@qballony - I agree about the serpent spam. I feel like 3 is a good number for me and I also want the list to be "my" list and not just a "ok how many serpents can I fit into my list." The walkers are fitted with bright lances in order to deal with AV13-14. I was previously running them with scatter lasers, but was testing out the lances since I already had a high number of S6-7 shots in the army. For instance, I have a friend that plays Necrons with AV13 vehicles that become armor AV11 if you pen them. I wanted some way to deal with this as he usually has 2-3 vehicles minimum (not including flyers). Pen them once with lances...then if they don't die, clean them up with S6-7. The idea of a night spinner is something I have also been toying with, so that input is pretty interesting. Why no cannons on bikes? Should I just keep them in reserves as a base unit of 3 for as long as I can and not use them offensively at all?

@Araenion - Are 6 naked hawks going to be more effective at anti AV13-14 than something else for the same cost? As for the shadow weavers and dark reapers, I feel that they are too static in a mobile list, which is why I do not have an aegis defense line. What heavy support choice would be best to fill the weaknesses of my army?

Other overall thoughts:
Would a different HQ be more beneficial and why?
Do I have enough anti AV13-14?
Are flyers going to be a problem for me? If so, how do I handle them?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
One more thing I just thought about. I also play chaos demons fairly often. Screamers are already troublesome for me and it would seem to be a major problem for a mantleseer or anything depending on cover for a save. How do you deal with that?

Morruin wrote:


@ ninjafiredragon - The use of the mantleseer is somewhat vexing to me. What is the point of keeping him out of sight behind a wall if you can't see your own units for buffing before moving? Doesn't that defeat the whole purpose of using a farseer? I know if the units are behind him, he can buff those, but the ones that really need the guide/prescience/whatever else I roll will probably be in front of him (ie WK, spiders). My most difficult opponents so far are Tau and Necrons. Maybe I am just thinking about this wrong, but a bit more explanation would be good.
One more thing I just thought about. I also play chaos demons fairly often. Screamers are already troublesome for me and it would seem to be a major problem for a mantleseer or anything depending on cover for a save. How do you deal with that?

generally for me (and every time i run a mantle sear it has worked great btw) if i am in need of somewhere to keep my mantle sear out of sight, i have 2 options.
a) behind any peive of terrain that blocks los. generally then it would still be able to help the units that need helping, but if most of your guys are up front, then this would be a problem, or
b) hide one behind a wave serpent. wave serpents are big, and it shoudnt be to hard to hide one behind it. play it carefull though. try and elieminate there ignores cover as soon as possible to eliminate this option.

if you on an avergae bases play guysa with a ton of ignores cover than it makes since to not run it. but if you only have a few guys in your meta then i would go for it. 40 points to make him invulnerable vs most armies is nice to me.

Morruin wrote:

@ RavenousD - I have also considered splitting the 10 man unit of spiders into 2x5. I feel that the exarch with upgrades is not really worth it when you could spend similar points to just add another spider. I have seen some posts including shining spears, but I do not have the models, and I am not quite sure how to use them effectively. How many spears would be needed to be effective? Are they any good if the opponent does not have a MC? On the note of the farseer, I am not sure how to keep him safe. How many bikes would he have to be with to be considered safe? Would a warlock for conceal be a good idea or waste of points?

Reason I say exarch is because at 9" away you get 3 bs5 s6 ap1 shots, even against tanks it greatly improves it (any pen is 50/50 destroyed), for just about the same points you can get 7 spiders who do less damage overall on average, yes you can take 2 extra wounds of damage, but you'll find that sometimes you are charged by a single character and sacrifice your exarch to soak up the wounds in a challenge before you hit and run out of there. Also precision shots make people cry, It just makes the unit more versatile.

Spears in a lot of ways are the exact same as bikes, but have the option to actually wreck face in combat. The idea with them is that you weaken down a unit with shooting and send them in to clean up. They only have two attacks on the charge but you normally should be able to account for 1 marine dead per spear, 2 dead from the exarch and 3 dead from an Autarch. They have skilled rider so pretty much always have a 4+ cover save and ignore dangerous terrian, have outflank, and every single model has the lance rule, meaning glancing land raiders to death (throwing haywire with an Autarch!) They will suffer the same stigma as spiders (and most other eldar for that matter) that they will get lots of shots poured at them because they aren't in a wave serpent, but if you have enough things on the table they might go unnoticed, and most marine players have it in their heads that spears suck so will generally ignore them.

As for cost the max unit is 260, that's 9 spears with exarch armed with a starlance and hit and run. With an autarch armed with lance, bike and fusion the total comes to 375pts. Not crazy considering its speed and ability to kill 13 marines on the charge. Think of it as a scalpel. You hit where you need to and fly off any where else you're needed with the 48" move if you get in trouble/ contest objectives.

Morruin wrote:

Other overall thoughts:
1)Would a different HQ be more beneficial and why?
2)Do I have enough anti AV13-14?
3)Are flyers going to be a problem for me? If so, how do I handle them?

1) I'd say yes, because currently the farseer is there to buff the wraithknight and war walkers. Giving him the mantle and hanging him back wouldn't be a bad idea other then against tau or other eldar (they are fast enough to get angles on you). Go with something cheap to buff the units like spiritseer or fusion gun autarch. Farseers do not have a way to guaranteed powers so its either really awesome or pointless, most will just take Guide, Prescience, and roll something random on whatever they feel might be good.

2) Not at 1500+. Combined you might be able to drop one av 13 a turn. The Warwalkers can be crippled easily, its why I avoid them, 1 wave serpent firing at them has the ability to ruin the squad.

3) Serpents are great against anti flyer, I don't seem to have much trouble with my friendly list that has 3 serpents.

After dropping the cannons from the bikes you can throw more walkers out there OR you can have an Autarch with mantle and jet bike fusion gun and/or Fire saber. H would give you some more anti tank and can be annoying to any one that play a defensive list and also he can do well on assault with 4 attacks on the charge at AP 3 and strength 5 or 6 (don't have the dex with me) also has hit and run (mantle) and has a 2+ re-roll able cover save and a 3+ armour and a 4+ invulnerable maybe it can offer you something.

Also i don't know how well the seer council works this dex, i would imagine not to well because the warlocks have to take tests to use their powers and each time you roll perils a warlock dies.

And if it comes down to points left over and you really want to play with something cool i would say either a 10 man unit of Harlequins with shadow seer and troupe master and 9x Harlequins kiss, or vipers with double cannons or scatter laser and cannons (that's a lot of cheap fast firepower).

Morruin wrote:

@Araenion - Are 6 naked hawks going to be more effective at anti AV13-14 than something else for the same cost? As for the shadow weavers and dark reapers, I feel that they are too static in a mobile list, which is why I do not have an aegis defense line. What heavy support choice would be best to fill the weaknesses of my army?

Yes. 96 points for 6 Haywire attacks on the charge and 1 Haywire from shooting on a Jump infantry squad means dead tanks everywhere. Plus, they won't die unless you want to sacrifice them. The no scatter DS is sick. Definitely worth a FA slot, even over Warp Spiders.

Morruin wrote:

Other overall thoughts:
Would a different HQ be more beneficial and why?
Do I have enough anti AV13-14?
Are flyers going to be a problem for me? If so, how do I handle them?

1) Well, a Spiritseer would be nice. Get him in there with 5 D-scythe Wraithguard in a Wave Serpent(drop one Dire Avenger squad or the Guardians from your troops), park them near a transport, put Spirit Mark on it, break it open with the Wraithknight rerolling 1's(essentially BS5 Wraithknight) and then burn the squad inside with 5 S4 AP2 templates.

2) Yes. Especially if you take Swooping Hawks. In my list I have a Wraithknight, a squad of Shining Spears and 6 Swooping Hawks as my anti AV13/14. I do have problems with 3+ AV13/14, but every list is going to have problems with something, so why not that be something that is rarely played. 2 LRs are manageable with your list. Focus one and ignore the other untill you kill the first one. You have the mobility to stay away from the contents of the other one or just feed them one squad per turn until you can take him out as well.

3) No, they won't. With 10 Warp Spiders and 3 Wave Serpents, you'd have to face 3 Helldrakes or Storm Ravens to really give you problems. And even then only if all of them arrive on the same turn.

TBH, its not AV 13 you're worried about, its AV 14.

With a squad of 8 warp spiders you get 16 shots x 2/3 (bs4) x 1/6 ( str 7 vs vehicles) = 1 7/9 hull points.

that is if you are hitting that side though. There is nothing that is av 13 on all sides. even on that that though you have pretty good chance of getting 2 HP off, which means 1 round of anti tank firing stirps the remaining one off.

as for HQ, tbh I don't think it matters. I find an autarch to not be as worthwhile for me since I don't usually deepstrike. Thats mainly what you pay for for his points. If you aren't deepstriking a bunch, Farseer is just better for almost same points with Jetbike (autarch needs gear, farseer is just barebones always), since you can always at least pick up guide and possibly something else useful or if you aren't the risking type roll 1 on Fate, and 1 on divination, and if you like either power you get roll on that one and worst comes to worst, you get double guide.

As far as jetbikes...they are not offensive. If they help on killing something that is bonus. They are not point efficient (or monetarily effecient) to be taken as gunboats. They are there to contest objectives and claim them after hiding all game. It applies SOOOOO much late game pressure, that they are required.

TBH 2 Wraithknights not only have 4 Heavy D-Cannons a turn, but also can litterally tear apart anything on the charge (even land raiders and Monoliths). They pretty much cover all anti av14 you will ever need for a TAC list.

The Warp spiders are just hands down a more versatile unit than either hawks or spears. and generally more mobile. That much str6/7 shooting with psuedo rending that can autowound even MCs (like Wraithknights or Iron arms nids or daemons) is too valuable to pass up.

Use wave serpents for taking out those pesky snipers or markerlights that just sit in cover. Constantly force pinning and leadership checks with these, while advancing with guardians and bombarding with Night spinner.

There is nothing really that your opponent can throw at you that you don't have the tools to deal with.

Will you lose? yes...a lot...and then you won't. The nice thing about the list i made, is that pretty much the only time you will lose is if you badly mess up deployment, or make errors. You have all the tools, so you shouldn't really lose. That might mean feeding sacrifical units to a Seer Council and then using bikes for last turn objectives, but thats how it goes. Thats why you bring them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ps. By lose a lot i mean, you will lose, but learn how to play and play VERY well. It won't be because of the list, it'll be purely a function of your skill.

I forgot to mention that spears can shoot their lances and then use them in the assault phase, and they are s6 ap3 range 6", you'll have to go NES duck hunt style, but with their movement it shouldn't be an issue.

A full unit of 8 with exarch (9 total) and autarch should kill 6-7 marines from shooting and another 11 from assault.

sorry, because i know someone is going to argue...by Versatile with spiders i mean:

Can reliably take out elite termies,
Can reliably take out marine squads
Can reliably take out hordes
Can reliably kill light to medium Armor
Can take out Flyers
Can take out any MC

The only thing they can't do is take out AV14. Spears might be better marine killers, and hawks tank killers, but the difference is almost negligible, especially given that spiders have hit and run, mobility and can target essentially what needs to be killed the most in the moment.

The best part is that they can be WHERE you want them to be hitting what needs to die the most EVERY TURN.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lol yeah but marines only come in squads of 10. If you kill all of them, and can't hide, you're dead. with assault units, you don't want them to overkill. You want them to kill on the second turn of assault, so that you get out on the end of their turn and are free to run around on your turn, assault again or w/e without them having a chance to shoot you.

 Araenion wrote:

Morruin wrote:

@Araenion - Are 6 naked hawks going to be more effective at anti AV13-14 than something else for the same cost? As for the shadow weavers and dark reapers, I feel that they are too static in a mobile list, which is why I do not have an aegis defense line. What heavy support choice would be best to fill the weaknesses of my army?

Yes. 96 points for 6 Haywire attacks on the charge and 1 Haywire from shooting on a Jump infantry squad means dead tanks everywhere. Plus, they won't die unless you want to sacrifice them. The no scatter DS is sick. Definitely worth a FA slot, even over Warp Spiders

i am curious, how come hawks are so good for anti vechle? they have 4+ armour, and to get into hay wire grenade assult, they have to survive a turn of enemy shooting. am i missing something? they seam to easy to kill to be reliable.

I'd definitely agree that Spiders are better than Hawks and Hawks are better than Spears. But I'm not advocating the use of Hawks instead of Warp Spiders(actually I was, but just instead of the small squad, I still play a large squad of Spiders in my own lists), just that Hawks fill exactly that niche that Spiders lack, so complement each other very well. And for pittance in points too.

Hawks have 12" move and ignore terrain when moving, then have 12" charge range with Fleet reroll. They also DS without scatter. What that means is placing them right next to a LOS blocking building, plopping the greande pack down somewhere and shooting some infantry squads, then Battlefocus behind LOS. It's only in very few cases that you'll fail that run roll, usually you just need 2 inches to hide everyone in the squad. Then next turn, you hop out from behind and assault a tank, killing it. First turn, you'll usually already kill more than their points in infantry, between shooting and the grenade pack. Next turn you can kill any vehicle you like and usually it'll be one of those 120+ point vehicles. And even better is that if you happen to survive next turn, you just hop up into the air and stick a finger to the entire enemy army as you do so. They're really great. I didn't believe it myself, until I tried them out.

Thanks to everyone for all of the comments so far. I have made a few lists, but I think this one is the one I like the best. The only thing I am unsure about is how to keep the farseer alive. The current plan is to have him run with 6 jetbikes, but I am not sure that will be enough. I know there has been a lot of discussion about a mantleseer, but I am still not sold on the idea. Any constructive criticism on this updated list would be appreciated.

HQ:
Farseer: Jetbike - 115

TROOPS:
Windrider Jetbike Squad (3) - 51
Windrider Jetbike Squad (6) - 102
Guardian Defenders (10) - 90
-Wave Serpent, TL Scatter Laser, Holofields - 135
Dire Avengers (5) - 65
-Wave Serpent, TL Scatter Laser, Holofields - 135
Dire Avengers (5) - 65
-Wave Serpent, TL Scatter Laser, Holofields - 135

FAST ATTACK:
Warp Spiders (7) - 133
Warp Spiders (7) - 133

HEAVY SUPPORT:
War Walkers (3), Scatter Laser, Scatter Laser - 210
Wraithknight, Wraithcannons - 240
Wraithknight, Wraithcannons - 240

TOTAL = 1849

Looks decently solid. Play with it. If you want to truely learn a list, when starting out, you play it like 6-7 times, between adjustments, so that you can see if it is the list or how you are implementing the list. After a while it'll be to the point that you can tell in 1-3 games usually if something suits your style of play. For me, I cannot for the life of me do the wave serpent/wraith spam with Fire prisms. I just don't find it satisfying, nor the most effecient. If I play those lists, I always say at one point in time in the game, "Man, I wish I had unit X instead of this 5th serpent" it just is not the way I play, so it feels super clunky to me, whereas I know a bunch of people who thrive off of the ability to utilize those serpents, so it all depends.

If you need any more help/advice, or are facing challenges in using your list feel free to ask, even if pre-modifying the list. Seriously, ask for strategy advice before list advice, because while that might not be a super duper tournament winner list, it should definitely win more than it loses, and hold its own most of the time. And hey, I could be wrong, you might smash a bunch of face wtih that list at a tourney in the future.