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So I've been having a lot of success recently with the armoured battlegroup army list with guard artillery allies (and by artillery I mean medusa/earthshaker carriages and sabre spam), and I enjoy the list, but now I've got my hands on IA3, I'm wondering whether they might make a better ally to my ABG?

Thoughts? Suggestions?

(PS no anti-FW arguments here please. It's an interesting discussion but it's not what I'm after! )

the idea of it sounds great but the cost of doing the combo means you will be spending a lot of points on flyers that could be used for armor. it will depend on your play style weather you can pull it off. i like the idea but the loss of troops that are already low in the armored battle group means your tanks will be hard pressed to hold off infantry that gets close to them. they could prove to be a nice alpha fire base but no intention of them living for more than three rounds. i think the armored battle group might be a better allie to the elysians than the other way around. still dont have ia3 but love the idea of troopers in choppers for an army.

I used to like running something similar when IA8 was the elysian army list and you could take 3 vultures in the HS slots. Those were the days where none of my flyers could come on till turn 2.

Now IA3ed2 is the most recent and you can bring on half your valks turn 1, no more auto loose! ABG now also has a major deficit of cheap scoring bodies. Flyers are also available in reasonable quantities to the ABG.

I would agree that the ABG would make for a better Allies and Elysians are a better Primary. Elysians can give you significant numbers of DS infantry to score objective while the ABG can take 4 separate tanks even as an ally.

What ever you do you should definitely try to get some beast slayer shells, a vulture, and vendettas.

I'm also partial to the inferno shells. I really think they cover a weakness that Elysians have.
Beast Slayer shells, while good, aren't necessary in my opinion. You should have plenty of lascannons and plasma/melta to handle the tough stuff. ID is great, but clearing cheap troops isn't something that elysians do particularly well (at least in my experience).

Really? In my experience they do great. Of course I have 5 RP valks and a vulture in my elysian list.

Inferno shells are pretty excellent. I am not a huge fan of the LRBT as your limited BS4 models but the inferno shells are so good that it is worthwhile.

I guess it really depends on if you are taking drop sentinels with MM? Elysians can do anti armour and anti troops pretty well but in my experience they have trouble dealing with MCs as they have to strip wounds using lascannons (vendettas) or meltas. Riptides in with HBC and skyfire/interceptor (aka Ovesa star style) are a huge concern when your entire army comes in from reserves. With a beast hunter shell you have a decent chance to kill a riptide turn 1 so he cannot intercept your vulture. They also work well if equiped with LC/MM to kill off necron wraiths with destroyer commander attached.

Thanks for the suggestions guys
My only issue with not using ABG as primary is that it only allows me to have two beast hunter shell tanks: not enough redundancy. My main opponent has a 1999+1 Tau list with 5 MC (or was it 6...), several of which are R'Varna (I allow them), and with only two beast hunter he can just focus them off the board...

Commissar tanks can take special ammo (as far as I remember, no codex right now). HQ+Elites is 2.

ABG allies aren't all that useful. Elysians can bring lots of firepower, but they don't really have a good camping unit to hold your "home" objectives. ABG allies don't help with this since they don't give you any scoring units.

 Peregrine wrote:
ABG allies aren't all that useful. Elysians can bring lots of firepower, but they don't really have a good camping unit to hold your "home" objectives. ABG allies don't help with this since they don't give you any scoring units.

So would you suggest continuing what I've been doing?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ansacs wrote:
Commissar tanks can take special ammo (as far as I remember, no codex right now). HQ+Elites is 2.

I know, I said two
My fear is two isn't enough

I think he's suggesting that other options would be more useful. Standard Imperial Guard can offer units like Sabre Artillery Platforms. These are durable scoring units that can hold up against most shooting attacks for a relatively small investment, while still contributing meaningfully to the army as a whole.

ABG doesn't offer the same utility, I'm afraid.

Corollax wrote:
I think he's suggesting that other options would be more useful. Standard Imperial Guard can offer units like Sabre Artillery Platforms. These are durable scoring units that can hold up against most shooting attacks for a relatively small investment, while still contributing meaningfully to the army as a whole.

ABG doesn't offer the same utility, I'm afraid.

Ah I feel he may have misread the OP somewhat then
I am deadset on using the ABG list, preferably for primary. At the mo, I have sabre/gun carriage spam as my ally to the ABG.
My question: would Elysians be a better ally to my ABG than standard guard?
Sorry if my OP was unclear!

Ah, okay, that makes more sense.

To answer your question, I don't think Elysians are a better match for ABG than standard Imperial Guard. Neither ABG nor Elysians do very well at holding home objectives. For most armies, doing this requires a pretty minimal investment, and it will be difficult to compete without that capability.

You also lose access to Artillery Carriages, which are some of the most cost-effective pie plates in 40k right now.

Those were my thoughts exactly just out of interest, what would you consider the more fun option though?

Erm...I quite like a primary IG contingent with ABG allies. ABG gives me access to an additional flyer (I <3 vultures), a thunderer, and a pair of BS4 vanquishers.

I wouldn't want any MORE Russes, and ABG gives me the extra fast attack slot I wanted. I'm in the minority here (I know Peregrine tends to advocate ABG primary for sheer weight of AV14), but these allies fit my needs well.

Best of luck figuring out what you're looking for.

Corollax wrote:
(I know Peregrine tends to advocate ABG primary for sheer weight of AV14)

Kind of. The main reason to do ABG primary is that a list with ABG allies tends to look pretty much the same as a standard list with LRBTs in heavy support, so you aren't really getting much out of the ABG list and probably benefit more from other support allies (divination psykers, etc). If you have a very specific ABG unit you want to add it's not terrible to take them as allies.

Thanks for the correction, Peregrine! And yeah, I'm getting at least two lynchpin units out of that ally selection, so I'm quite happy with it.

I'll readily admit I'm paying an opportunity cost in other ally selections, particularly with respect to ATSKNF and psyker support. Since so much of my army is already twin-linked, I'm okay with that compromise. YMMV.

Tactical_Genius wrote:
So I've been having a lot of success recently with the armoured battlegroup army list with guard artillery allies (and by artillery I mean medusa/earthshaker carriages and sabre spam), and I enjoy the list, but now I've got my hands on IA3, I'm wondering whether they might make a better ally to my ABG?

Thoughts? Suggestions?

My army I have been running is Elysian with Codex:IG Allies ... and it works wonders! My list:

Elysian CCS with 4 Melta Guns + Beacon < Deep Striking + Orders for Drop Troops
Elysian Vets with 3 Plasma Guns < Deep Striking Plasma baby!
Elysian Vets with 3 Plasma Guns < Deep Striking Plasma baby!
Elysian Vets with 3 Plasma Guns < Deep Striking Plasma baby!
Elysian Vets with 3 Plasma Guns < Deep Striking Plasma baby!
Elysian Vets with 3 Plasma Guns < Deep Striking Plasma baby!
ADL with Quad Gun

Codex:IG Allies

CCS with MoO Missile Std. < Orders + Static backbone of my army
Marbo < DS with Drop Troops
PCS with AC < Stay on home objective & DAKKA DAKKA
3x Infantry Squad with AC & Flamer < See above
Sabre TL Lascannons to flavour
PCS with Bolter & 4 flamers < Go get Middle objectives
3x Infantry Squad with AC & Flamer < Go get Middle objectives
2x Heavy Artillery Carriages / Earthshaker << BANG BANG

This lets me Stay on the board turn 1-3 and hold my home objective while reaching out and taking theirs with the Drop Troops later on. If gives me great anti flier and good indirect damage with enough pie plats and pinning tests. It gives me great amounts ST7 firepower and enough bodies to weather most storms + lasguns & Flamers for hordes. then on turn 2 or 3 I DS my Elysians + Marbo in and this is important:

Hit only 1 area of the board with ALL you drop troops. Concentrate fire on nearby threats and take one point of the board. DS this part of your force within 2-3 turns of movement of their objective.

This gives you a well rounded force that doesn't rely on gimmicks like ID Beasthunter shells (They are very cool - actually its more Vanquishers are cool - but are an unreliable gimmick that has more of a psychological effect on your opponent - like Marbo - than a battle changing effect).

Why no Astropath you say ... because I NEED my force to arrive piecemeal to take care of fast moving / DSing threats to my T3 5+ save guys. This gives my flexibility and a chance to react as the battle develops.

Where are my fliers you say ... at home in the cupboard. To spam fliers to a saturation level enough to overcome air defence is expencive points wise and doesnt let you have enough scoring boots on the ground.

Why so much Plamsa you say ... because the thing Codex:IG cant deal with from experience is massed MC's and 15 Plasma Guns can deal with this.

P.S. With the upcoming Codex:Inquisitor I could add an Inquisitor as a second HQ choice for more shenanigans!!!

This gives you a well rounded force that doesn't rely on gimmicks like ID Beasthunter shells (They are very cool - actually its more Vanquishers are cool - but are an unreliable gimmick that has more of a psychological effect on your opponent - like Marbo - than a battle changing effect).

Beast hunter shells have a >50% chance to kill a riptide with every shot. Unreliable gimmick? I think not.

Tactical_Genius wrote:
Beast hunter shells have a >50% chance to kill a riptide with every shot. Unreliable gimmick? I think not.

This. Vanquishers with beast hunter shells aren't even close to a gimmick against MCs. You have a pretty good chance to hit, especially if you're within 36" for the coax gun, and once you hit you're wounding on a 2+ with instant death. Riptides are forced to nova charge for a 3++ to have a chance of survival, Wraithknights have a 50/50 chance to die every time they get hit, and poor Tyranid MCs die on a 2+.

@Peregrine
Totally agreed. Beast hunter shells are no gimmick.

BS4 vanquishers also are not gimmicks.

Additionally thunderer tanks can be very good.

There is also a really awesome trick you can pull with general grizmond, a unit of 2 punisher leman russ tanks where they become BS4. That is a bit more "gimmicky" but 58 S5 shots at BS4 a turn is not bad.

The only reason that ABG is a bad ally for elysians is that you have nothing to act as a buffer so your tanks don't get melta'd or Krak grenade'd to death.

@Thornz
Not a bad list, looks fun to play. I wouldn't upgrade the vanilla IS beyond flamers so they can move up and are easier to sacrifice. Your list also has a major weakness in the lack of a Lord Commissar to buff the sabre and heavy carriages Ld. As it is you take even a modicum of casualties on them and they will run. You could take a lord commissar with beacon in the elysians portion and use it to DS off of. I sometimes play with something similar in a somewhat similar list (more storm troopers and elysians as allies) and a DA/elysians list.

Haha Peregrine agrees with me on something