Counts AS BS 1 & BS 10, at the same time, which one sticks?

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**Tsilber**

So Grey knights have an item called Psycculum (spelling?)
Whenever a model with it, and his unit, shoot at a psyker they "COUNT as BS 10"

What about flying Lord of change?

You count as BS 1 because of snap fire, yet its a psyker so you count as BS 10.

The rules of adding and subtracting attribute bonuses and subtractions gives little help in the rule book.

The most recent FAQ from GW, says a models "Special ability" can never effect snapshots. So Telions special rule...
However The Psycculum is not a special ability, it is a piece of war gear.

So thoughts?

**DogOfWar**

Your model will count as BS10 but snap shots are resolved at BS1. You'll still need 6's to hit the Flying Lord of Change.

DoW

**rigeld2**

It's still something trying to modify a snap shot which you have no permission to do.

**Neorealist**

Unless there is some specific FAQ invalidating one or the other; you'd default to applying the codex rule in preference to the basic snapshot rule I believe.

They cannot both effect the same thing: given they both use the same wording and operate within the same time-frame, the more advanced rule would win out.

It can definitely be argued that there is precedent for snapshots not being modifiable by other rules. (given they've almost invariably ruled that way in other conflicting rules scenarios) However, while I do not believe there is specific reference to the Psyocculum, they do present a compelling general trend.

**rigeld2**

There is an FAQ saying Snap Shots cannot be modified, including by abilities like Telion's, etc.

**Neorealist**

rigeld2 wrote:
There is an FAQ saying Snap Shots cannot be modified, including by abilities like Telion's, etc.

In that case I stand corrected, I was not aware of there being a overarching rule against modifying snapshots. Can you quote that particular FAQ entry?

**nosferatu1001**

Neo - check out the BRB FAQ. Unless specifically mentione you cannot alter the BS of a snapshot that is resolved at.

**Tsilber**

DogOfWar wrote:Your model will count as BS10 but snap shots are resolved at BS1. You'll still need 6's to hit the Flying Lord of Change.

DoW

Im not saying you are wrong, but can you point out what rule says wargear alterations happen prior to snap shot alterations?
It can easily be said, well you count as bs 1 because you are firing snap shots, but you have a piece of wargear it then goes from a 1 to a 10

rigeld2 wrote:There is an FAQ saying Snap Shots cannot be modified, including by abilities like Telion's, etc.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Neo - check out the BRB FAQ. Unless specifically mentione you cannot alter the BS of a snapshot that is resolved at.

The BRB FAQ, clearly says a models "Special abilities" can never modify a snap shot.. And it reference Tellion. That FAQ clearly says a models "special abilities", NOT special abilities and "wargear".

Q: Can the BS1 of a
Snap Shot
ever be modified by special rules
that modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Space
Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of Experience)? (p13)
A: No.

Tau have wargear that can modify a snap shot.

I truly do not know, im asking for hard core evidence, and reference. The speculation or mis quoting of faq's, or assumption of what it should say is something totally else.

Cheers

EDIT, well even the FAQ does refer to a piece of wargear, the signum... But it says "special rules"... hmmm. So if it is indeed both items and special abilities they should clearify, but does that effect the tau marker lights then?

**Happyjew**

The Tau wargear specifically says that it can modify Snap Shots.

Also, the Signum is a piece of wargear, not a special rule.

**Tsilber**

Happyjew wrote:
The Tau wargear specifically says that it can modify Snap Shots.

Also, the Signum is a piece of wargear, not a special rule.

Yeah, after quoting and rereading again, it definitely does make a refference to wargear. I guess its as clear as we are going to get it at this point. Plus it seems like the "general consensus" with those who have posted already.

**Nem**

Yeah, I think the snap shot rule is generally misunderstood because they didn't really make it stand out well. As a general rule of thumb, it's better to think about it as bs10 vs snap shot, rather than bs10 vs bs1. You need permission to override Snap Shot rule, not the bs snap shot sets you at.

**insaniak**

Tsilber wrote:
Im not saying you are wrong, but can you point out what rule says wargear alterations happen prior to snap shot alterations?

It's not a matter of one happening before the other. The model is BS10 at that moment in the game, but Snap Shots are resolved at BS1 regardless of the model's actual BS.

**Tsilber**

insaniak wrote:
Tsilber wrote:
Im not saying you are wrong, but can you point out what rule says wargear alterations happen prior to snap shot alterations?

It's not a matter of one happening before the other. The model is BS10 at that moment in the game, but Snap Shots are resolved at BS1 regardless of the model's actual BS.

I understand what your saying, but it could easily be said the other way... "The model is bs 1 the moment he declares to fire at a flyer, but goes up to bs 10 when the flyer is a lord of change"

The model is BS 10 the moment he declares to shoot at a psyker, the model is bs 1 the moment he declares he is shooting at something flying... So he says i am shooting at your flying Lord of change who is a psyker.. Thats still declaring at the same time. BS 1 for flyer, bs 10 for psyker..

I mean we have determined from the FAQ you cant modify snap shots, but if that rule wasn't on the errata. And i was playing against a grey knights player with my deamons, i think i would have a tough argument if i worded it the way you are.

But either way its mute, FAQ/errata.

**insaniak**

Tsilber wrote:
I understand what your saying, but it could easily be said the other way... "The model is bs 1 the moment he declares to fire at a flyer, but goes up to bs 10 when the flyer is a lord of change"

No, it can't, because that's not what happens.

A model firing a Snap Shot is not BS1. The shot is just resolved at BS1.

But either way its mute, ...

The word you're looking for there is 'moot'...

**Tsilber**

insaniak wrote:
Tsilber wrote:
I understand what your saying, but it could easily be said the other way... "The model is bs 1 the moment he declares to fire at a flyer, but goes up to bs 10 when the flyer is a lord of change"

No, it can't, because that's not what happens.

A model firing a Snap Shot is not BS1. The shot is just resolved at BS1.

But either way its mute, ...

The word you're looking for there is 'moot'...

What ruling or rules backs up your statement of it not happening that way...

A model firing a snap shot counts as BS 1 as per brb, a model with a psyocculum firing a psyker counts as BS 10 per grey knights book. You declare you are firing at a flying psyker.....This is like what came first the chicken or the egg.. I just dont agree with your wording on it. Of coarse this is going back and forth on rules as written, pretending that FAQ/errata doesnt exist. However I think the FAQ/errata was definitely needed for clarification. Because rules as written without it, neither of us is right nor wrong, and neither seems like we will see it the other way, or accept it the other way.

LOL, and yes moot!

**rigeld2**

The BRB does not say a Snap Shot counts as Bs1. It says the shot is resolved at Bs1.

**Tsilber**

rigeld2 wrote:
The BRB does not say a Snap Shot counts as Bs1. It says the shot is resolved at Bs1.

The BRB does say exactly that... Page 13...

if a model is forced to make snap shots, Then its ballistic skill is counted as BS 1

BRB does NOT say "the shot is resolved at BS 1"

And the item in question says , bearer and his unit counts as BS 10 when shooting at a psyker...

Again, the faq summed it up, and its a good thing. Rules as written, has no definitive way of calculating... chicken or the egg...

cheers

**CrashCanuck**

The order of operation for this is that the Psyoculum makes the units BS 10, but then the rules for Snap Shots kicks in and it forces the shots to be counted at BS 1, the use of the word counted means it doesn't matter what your BS is or what modifiers you can do to it, the shots still count as though the model was BS 1

**rigeld2**

Tsilber wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
The BRB does not say a Snap Shot counts as Bs1. It says the shot is resolved at Bs1.

The BRB does say exactly that... Page 13...

if a model is forced to make snap shots, Then its ballistic skill is counted as BS 1

BRB does NOT say "the shot is resolved at BS 1"

And the item in question says , bearer and his unit counts as BS 10 when shooting at a psyker...

Again, the faq summed it up, and its a good thing. Rules as written, has no definitive way of calculating... chicken or the egg...

cheers

Sorry - I had it confused in my brain with the relevant rule on page 49 where shots are resolved as Snap Shots against swooping FMCs.

**Imperator_Class**

Shooting is shooting, Snap Shots are Snap Shots, a specific way of shooting separate from normal shooting, which are BS 1.

**Kommissar Kel**

Tsilber wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
The BRB does not say a Snap Shot counts as Bs1. It says the shot is resolved at Bs1.

The BRB does say exactly that... Page 13...

if a model is forced to make snap shots, Then its ballistic skill is counted as BS 1

I do love incomplete quotes, they can say anything you want them to.

The rest of that sentence is: "for the purpose of those shots."

So if you are firing snap shots, then those shots set your model to BS1; the timing on Shooting at a Psyker is when you are designating a target. So it goes declare target, see that you are shooting at a psyker, gain BS10. Go to roll for your shots, but are shooting Snap Shots; set BS to 1.

Tsilber wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
BRB does NOT say "the shot is resolved at BS 1"

And the item in question says , bearer and his unit counts as BS 10 when shooting at a psyker...

Again, the faq summed it up, and its a good thing. Rules as written, has no definitive way of calculating... chicken or the egg...

cheers

**Rumbleguts**

I think all these "timing" arguments are fairly meaningless. The game doesn't have anything that talks about order of precedence in relation to time in how set stat modifiers are figured. In fact, this part of the FAQ would seem to counter any "timing" arguments

Q: Does the Initiative 10 imposed by the Timeflow Stabiliser
take precedence over other set value modifiers such as Necron
Whip Coils? (p106)
A: No, randomly determine which effect takes precedence each turn.

Unless there is something specific about the Necron Whip Coils, a codex to which I don't have access.

\

**nosferatu1001**

Apart from the FAQ, which requires you to have a special rule to not resolve the shot as BS1

**DarthOvious**

Tsilber wrote:
Tau have wargear that can modify a snap shot.

I truly do not know, im asking for hard core evidence, and reference. The speculation or mis quoting of faq's, or assumption of what it should say is something totally else.

Cheers

EDIT, well even the FAQ does refer to a piece of wargear, the signum... But it says "special rules"... hmmm. So if it is indeed both items and special abilities they should clearify, but does that effect the tau marker lights then?

The Tau codex specifically mentions that Markerlights can increase the ballistic skill of snap shots and overwatch.

**Tsilber**

rigeld2 wrote:
Tsilber wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
The BRB does not say a Snap Shot counts as Bs1. It says the shot is resolved at Bs1.

The BRB does say exactly that... Page 13...

if a model is forced to make snap shots, Then its ballistic skill is counted as BS 1

BRB does NOT say "the shot is resolved at BS 1"

And the item in question says , bearer and his unit counts as BS 10 when shooting at a psyker...

Again, the faq summed it up, and its a good thing. Rules as written, has no definitive way of calculating... chicken or the egg...

cheers

Sorry - I had it confused in my brain with the relevant rule on page 49 where shots are resolved as Snap Shots against swooping FMCs.

Yeah i just read that entry, it does word it a bit differently lol, cheers.

Kommissar Kel wrote:
Tsilber wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
The BRB does not say a Snap Shot counts as Bs1. It says the shot is resolved at Bs1.

The BRB does say exactly that... Page 13...

if a model is forced to make snap shots, Then its ballistic skill is counted as BS 1

I do love incomplete quotes, they can say anything you want them to.

The rest of that sentence is: "for the purpose of those shots."

So if you are firing snap shots, then those shots set your model to BS1; the timing on Shooting at a Psyker is when you are designating a target. So it goes declare target, see that you are shooting at a psyker, gain BS10. Go to roll for your shots, but are shooting Snap Shots; set BS to 1.

Tsilber wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
BRB does NOT say "the shot is resolved at BS 1"

And the item in question says , bearer and his unit counts as BS 10 when shooting at a psyker...

Again, the faq summed it up, and its a good thing. Rules as written, has no definitive way of calculating... chicken or the egg...

cheers

Oh cmon, the quote not completed has no relevance. The poster said "The rulebook did not say "counts as" , he said it is "resolved as". There is a difference between Counts BS 1, and resolved at BS 1.

"if a model is forced to make snap shots, Then its ballistic skill is counted as BS 1, for the purpose of those shots". It could say "then eat a cheeseburger from mcdonalds". The relevant point is what i quoted.

Also, i do see your point on, Declare a target you go to BS 10, shoot you go BS 1. However where in the rules does it back up your statement "the timing on Shooting at a Psyker is when you are designating a target".

They are both worded the same, When shooting at a Psyker count as BS 10, when shooting at a flyer count as BS 1 . Neither says "when declaring a target".

Maybe im just playing devils advocate. But alls i see is assumptions of the RAW.... So Again good thing of the FAQ, it sums it up pretty clear.