Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So I got my grubby little paws on the new Tau codex and began reading about the seeker missiles:

The entry says:

Needs a markerlight hit to fire (one/shot) - but once lit, fires at BS5

Can fire at different targets as long as they are lit.

Is unlimited range, no LOS requiring.

Can always fire even if vehicle movement would prohibit it.

Can fire if the vehicle is stunned.

- The seeker missile breaks pretty much every rule of standard shooting - i.e. it is S8 - therefore a main weapon - but can fire multiple times on the move, at multiple targets, and may shoot even if the vehicle is prohibited from shooting via the stunned result, at no LOS needed... which brings me to an observation, and a few questions.

Observation:  My Skyray is "shaken".  i.e. no-shoot.  The RAW state that it can't fire seekers, but can if its stunned. - GW nonsense at its best.

Questions:

1.  When do you resolve the seeker missile strike?  The RAW suggest that fires when the vehicle would normally fire, eschewing all normal targeting rules as per the seeker missile entry, although the seeker missile and markerlight entry also vaguely suggests that the seeker missile is resolved as part of the marker counter effect.

2.  Do you have to resolve all the seekers against the same target at the same time?  I think this is a grey area, especially in light of the finite nature of the seekers.  (Note, this is largely moot if the seeker missile may be resolved immediately when the marker counter is placed and "used" - the RAW conveniently do not state when the marker counters should be redeemed.) - Example:

There's a rhino full of berserkers with 4 markerlight counters and a predator with 2 markerlight counters.  If a skyray (4 remaining seekers) elects to fire seekers at the rhino, do you have to alocate shots at the start of the turn and roll them at once, or can you resolve each marker counter one at a time?

2a.  When self-markering, does the Skyray have to fire its burstcannons at the same target?  (I forget if the Skyray comes with a free multi-tracker to avoid this exact problem).

Looking forward to hearing your input.

Sincerely:

Shas'el Confused Chicken.

I definitely get the impression that they didn't properly test the revised markerlight rules before they put them in print. Alot of assumptions seem to have been made when they wrote them.

I can't wait to tell someone they can't shoot a seeker at me because:

1. The vehicle with the seeker already fired

2. The vehicle with the seeker is shaken.

I can almost make out the sweet, sweet smell of frustration that's sure to be brewed up.

I agree it is a can of worms.  So you agree that seeker missiles fire when the vehicle fires.  The next question is do they fire all at once in a salvo, or can you fire them one at a time?  Here's three scenarios involving a rhino with 3 markerlight counters on it attacked by a Skyray:

 

Use 3 counters - Fires 3 seeker missiles.  Rhino destroyed by the -second- missile. - 1 missile wasted

Use 1 counter - Fire 1 seeker missile.  Stunned. 

Use 1 counter - Fire 2nd missile - Rhino Destroyed - 0 missile wasted

Use 1 counter - Fire 1 seeker missile.  Stunned

Use 1 counter - Fire burst cannons at Rhino at BS5 - No effect

Use 1 counter - Fire 1 seeker missile.  Stunned

 

Since seeker shots require counters, the closest analogy would be faith points - which is expended a point at a time up to many times a same turn for the same unit in the same turn phase (- e.g. divine guidance + spirit of the martyr).  So instead of "firing a seeker missile", you are "expending a markerlight counter", with a seeker missile being an "effect" that happens to whatever the counter is on, occuring on a 2+ with krak missile stats.

Of couse, you could always use the following example - which sidesteps the whole issue, but weakens the Skyray by forcing the vehicle to get LOS to conserve its payload.

 

Use 1 counter - Fire 1 seeker missile - no effect.

Use 2 counters - Fire burst cannon at +2BS

Use markerlight to gain 1 more counter.

Use 1 counter - Fire 1 seeker missile - no effect.

Use markerlight to gain 1 more counter.

Use 1 counter - Fire 1 seeker missile - effect.

 

Anyhow - my 2 cents

GW Rules are the Bestest.

I think that the way it's worded the vehicle fires them when it goes and it fires them all at once.

But I think there's plenty of room for argument.

this is easy really

seekers are infantry support heavy weapons normally just slapped onto a vehicle to carry them but actually fired by troop units. hence the vehicle status is irrelevant as long as it is not destroyed.

the skyray is a special case in that its main weapons system is a seeker missle turret so yes it's missle can still be fired by a markerlight using troop unit even if it has moved over 12"(and has a multitracker) or is stunned, it may not however use it's own marker lights as they are considered tank mounted defensive weapons. any other tau vehicle can only cary or fire 2 seeker missles. notice the skyray canot get this upgrade.

so yes you could shoot the wad and use all 6 seekers in 1 turn or keep shooting them every turn at your discretion...the down side is that you have a limited number and once thier gone your base price 100 point + tank now has no heavy weapons. which is why i don't care for it.

"The missiles may always be fired each at a different targets if revelant, regardless of the the distance the vehicle has moved or whether it has fired any weapons. They may also be fired if the vehicle has suffered a Crew stunned vehicle damage result. "

Since the missile may be fired even if the vehicle has fire any weapon before. Mabye you could spent a markerligth counter, fire a missile, see the result, if needed fire another one.

Interesting point Scram. I hadn't considered it that way.

That would make seekers much better than they used to be.

After some discussion yesterday, we concoluded that there is nothing in the rules that prevents one from firing the seekers one at a time - which is the only prudent thing to do.

All said and done, the skyray is not a bad deal when you consider that discounting the cost of the six seeker missiles, you get a vehicle with a hammerhead hull, armed with 2x burstcannon, and 2x networked markerlights for 10 points more than a Pirhanna!!!  Not so shabby at all!

The main challenge is how to provide it with markerlight counters for the first couple of turns.  I am sure that any pathfinder teams deployed in the open can, and will be gutted.  But this is a discussion for tactics.

Posted By mughi3 on 04/03/2006 9:22 PM

this is easy really

seekers are infantry support heavy weapons normally just slapped onto a vehicle to carry them but actually fired by troop units. hence the vehicle status is irrelevant as long as it is not destroyed.

the skyray is a special case in that its main weapons system is a seeker missle turret so yes it's missle can still be fired by a markerlight using troop unit even if it has moved over 12"(and has a multitracker) or is stunned, it may not however use it's own marker lights as they are considered tank mounted defensive weapons. any other tau vehicle can only cary or fire 2 seeker missles. notice the skyray canot get this upgrade.

Ah, but they're not fired by troop units. The rules clearly state "fired by a vehicle", thus they should fire at the same time the vehicle fires. As well, IIRC, the markerlights on the Skyray are networked, which alows it to marker for its own missiles. I do not see how markerlights being defensive weapons have anything to do with it.

[qutoe]Ah, but they're not fired by troop units. The rules clearly state "fired by a vehicle", thus they should fire at the same time the vehicle fires.

Here's another one for you guys.

Can Seeker Missiles be weapon destroyed?

If they can, does the vehicle count as damaged, even though a vehicle that had fired its seeker missile vs. one that merely had it weapon destroyed are in the same state.

(I suspect the answer is yes to all, since other upgrades like pintle-mounted stormbolters can be weapon destroyed)... though, the question now also extends to drones...

Do drones destroyed by weapon destroyed count as damage to the vehicle?!??

Posted By scramasax on 04/03/2006 10:21 PM

"The missiles may always be fired each at a different targets if revelant, regardless of the the distance the vehicle has moved or whether it has fired any weapons. They may also be fired if the vehicle has suffered a Crew stunned vehicle damage result. "

Since the missile may be fired even if the vehicle has fire any weapon before. Mabye you could spent a markerligth counter, fire a missile, see the result, if needed fire another one.

 

I assumed that the seekers can fire as soon as you marker.  I didn't notice that is said that they fire "with" the vehicle.  I'm ready to use a networked markerlight to crack open a transport, then have the rest of the squad fire at the now vulnerable squad.  Do you think this is legal or is there somewhere in the codex that states that the seekers fire at the same time as the vehicle.

I think for consistencies sake they can not count for weapon destroyed results. This is bordering on the same debate as Hunter-Killer missiles. The only difference being that the rulebook makes it pretty clear that the HK missiles are considered a vehicle weapon, while the Tau codex seems to imply that they are not a vehicle weapon.

I'm reading 'regardless of the the distance the vehicle has moved or whether it has fired any weapons...' as 'the vehicle may fire several times in one shooting phase, so long as it fires seekers'. I'm thinking firing a seeker before the vehicle fires, then firing the vehicle/firing more seekers after the vehicle fires is perfectly legal.

I'm not so sure that they can't be weapon destroyed. It's hard to say that seekers aren't a weapon, they have a 'range', strength, and ap (much like hunter killers), and are definately mounted on the vehicle. The only reason the vehicle can't fire them is that the seeker missile rules say they can't.

I'm not so sure either! I'm just saying that when we can't get a good RAW grasp of a situation we try to use Consistency, Logic, and finally (percieved) Intent in that order to resolve it.

When I say "we" I mean my gaming group not Dakka.  On Dakka when we can't use RAW we use Name calling, Poo throwing, and Dictionary quotes in that order to resolve it.

I don't see why they can't be destroyed, but how would this count for VP purposes?  Scoring unit?

What do you mean? If the vehicle is immobilized it's worth half. If it's destroyed it's worth full.

Well, what I meant by that is that we can use the RAW pretty clearly here. Is it a weapon? I think so, because it has stats much like a weapon and is fired in the shooting phase like one. Is it mounted on a vehicle? Yes, because it is a vehicle upgrade (much like hunter killers) and if the vehicle gets blown up you lose all your seekers. Can you destroy any vehicle mounted weapon you choose when you roll a weapon destroyed result? Yes you can.

If we're using hunters as a basis for the argument (and they are pretty similar) it's really hard to say why you shouldn't be able to blow off seekers.

"Armament Destroyed:
A weapon of S4 or greater (chosen by the attacker) is destroyed. If a vehicle has no eligible weapons left, treat this result as an Immobilised resut instead. This can include vehicle upgrades that function as weapons, such as ..." p67 BGB

So, ask yourself the following questions:

Are Seekers a weapon of S4 or greater?
Are Seekers a vehicle upgrade that functions as a weapon?

If ether of these is true then your opponent may choose a seeker as the Armament Destroyed result.
Note that the rule says nothing about the weapon having a requirement about it being hull-, pintle-, or turret-mounted. Simply that it be an S4 or greater weapon.

Turtle: "Well, what I meant by that is that we can use the RAW pretty clearly here."

Actually, I mean "what does keezus mean?" I know what you mean. You mean that the Seeker is a weapon mounted/dependant on the vehicle so it should count. I just don't know what keezus means with his question about VP's. Know what I mean?


mean

[Edit] Maybe keezus is talking about the situation that occurs when an immobilized Skyray has no other weapons leftbesides one seeker missile.  Then, it fires it's last missile.

Is it destroyed since it is an immobilized vehicle with no more weapons?

Does it need to take one more immobilized/weapon destroyed result to be destroyed?

Does it need to take two moreimmobilized/weapon destroyed results to account for the Seeker Missile mount?

"On Dakka when we can't use RAW we use Name calling, Poo throwing, and Dictionary quotes in that order to resolve it."

mmm, in my sig now

It sounds like he's operating under 'damaged vehicles are worth 1/2 VP's' as opposed to an immobilized vehicle being worth half vp's. I think. Wasn't that 3rd ed.?

Ahh. That's probably true. I don't remember without looking it up, but that sounds very 3rd ed.

Can they be destroyed

Gun drones: No. they are treated as passenger if the vehicle is damage.

Markerligth: No, Count as a defensive weapon on the skyray. But nothing about counting for S4 or more.

Seeker missile: Yes. they are include in the weapon section of the skyray and not in something like a wargear section. they are include in the tau weapon profile and they are greater than S4. Seeker missile section say that each is a single shot weapon

Strangely the landing gear is in the weapon section of the tau skimmer.

bingo!

a seeker missle is a weapon MOUNTED on a vehicle even if it is fired by troops and not the vehicle. so yes it counts towards your weapon destroyed results. which in a way is good because if you run out of weapons to detroy the vehicle is immobilized and thus becomes a non-scoring unit(for heavies) or is no longer able to act as a transport(in the case of delifish).

That all sounds good to me. I'm easy. I just hate to see the Seekers turn into another Hunter Killer situation where the debate is left open as to wether "one-shot" weapons no longer exist after they have taken their one-shot, or if they have to be destroyed to no longer exist.

By the way I love the fact that the Seekers can be destroyed while the Markerlights can't! Good find scramasax! I think I'll just stick with Pathfinders for my Marker delivery method and leave the whole Sky/only two missile firing-landing gear weapon-nondestroyable but controllable weapon-destroyable but uncontrollable weapon/Ray out of my games. At least, I'll leave it out until the FAQ comes out with a jewel like "The Skyray's markerlights will count as defensive weapons for the purposes of weapon destroyed results." Then, after that's all cleared up we can all go back to playing marines.

I'm pretty well convinced that with the limited amount of missles and the fact that statistically, one of them will miss anyway, the Skyray's gonna be minimally effective.  I't seems kinda pricy for just 6 missles that you can put on other vehicles......

i agree with ironkodiak, pretty much alll it is realy good for is a mobile marker light platform. i'd rather take a hammerhead.

It's the fact that it takes a heavy slot that makes it such a non-starter (and likely seller).

But I'm sure they're great in smaller games.