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A question who would win a tooled up chapter master on a bike or a tooled up thunder wolf lord?

If the SM player goes all-out the CM should win handily.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
If the SM player goes all-out the CM should win handily.

Emmm. could you give any nice argument besides an empty statement????

To the OP, in wich sense, pointwise, raw power, sinergy with other units, buffs to the army? or a simple 1vs1 figth, in that case, how would you armed the Cmaster and the wolf lord?

Could i give a example, without care of the point cost:
Wolf lord-TWC, powerfist, SS, Wolftooth necklace, runic armour and saga of the beast slayer.
WS6 S4(5) T4(5) W3 I5 A4(5) (the second numbers is the improvent of the with the TW mount)
VS
Chapter Master-SM bike, SS, Burning blade and artificer armour
WS6 S4(7) T4(5) W4 I5 A4 (the same above, but the S improvement is for the burning blade)

So first the wolf lord, you have 5 natural attacks of S10 six on charge, alwalys to hit with 3+, re-roll against T5 models and 3++ sv
The CM have 4 natural attacks of S7, five on charge, have to hit 4+ against the Wolf lord and 3++ sv, if White scar CM have a hammer of wrath of S5 (the same with the wolf lord)

In fight:
A hissing mountain of muscle charge agaist the Chapter master, making a S5 impact on the charge, the Chapter master recive the impact but absorve it easily with his fine and detailed artificer armour, his weapon, a power fist, is cumberson enought to give ti the CM an adaventage, his weapon more agile give him the uppercut on the fight, given blows with pression, the burnign blade, a legendary weapon cut trought the armor as easyle as cut trought the air, the wolf lord is capable enoguth to parrie and block the bulk of the attack, but suffer two cuts on the flesh, and the fulgor of the ble blind the sight of the wolf lord
-"Just a scracht"- the wolf lord replie
-"then brign it on, savage"- The CM replie to the wolf lord
Then was the turn if the wolf lord, given the agility of his mount, moving left to right, gain the chance of making more attacks, and the strenght of the astartes combined with the momentum of the thunderwolf, the strenght of the attacks was desvastating, even with the disadavantege of his limited sight, thew wolf lord manege to easily asscert his blows, he was carreing thw wolftooth necklace, an item that not give power, but is more the proof that is a great warrior, and besides he is a expert fighther of tought opponents, hence the name of his personal saga, the beast slayer, The chapter master miracously stop most of the blows, but a single hit was enought to wreck the bike and send flying to the ground the incounsius CM body....
When the CM recored seconds later, bloody but alive, still holding tight the sacred weapon, but the only thing he could see was a riding giant shadow, he just smile reckoning the might of the savage and barbarian chapter know as the Space wolves.

Here you have what could happen, CM have two disadventage, to hit on 4´s, and more importantle instant death, but have the iniative on his side, even with luck on his side, the wolf lord only need a single wound to finish the fight, even with blind, the wl with the necklace always hit on 3+, and the CM have another disadventage, the incandescent rule.
Even with the indomitus armour, wicht would be a great advantage, if he not win the fight on the first round, the second, the wolf lord goind to gain another staint on his fist. Another advantage is the shield ethernal, but thats a lot of wasted points or to much relics on just one characte; but it is an adventage after all, as said at the begining, i am ignoring the point cost, just want to make note
But i dont know, is the way i see the fight, feel free to make the mathammer (something ridiculous, on my humble point of view, you have to much factor to take care on simple math operations, dices, table, strenght of the trowh etc..., feel happy with your probability , repeat is my humble opinion)

SM chapter master with iron hands tactics, AA, shield eternal and TH wins hands down. This build is better than the above and would smoke the wolf lord

Wait why is the wolf lord hitting on 3+ instead of 4+ as both are ws6?
with the above iron hands one
Both are going last, SW has an extra attack, but the chapter master gets IWND rolls (no FNP for st 10)
Assuming math and both had not charged each other and on a subsequent round challenged each other.

2 hits for SM, 1.66 wounds, .55 unsaved wounds
2.5 hits for SW, 2.08 wounds, .69 unsaved wounds per turn

But with IWND on chapter master puts it down to .46 (i think that's right)

chapter master would barely edge out + can also add digital weapons.

Edit: oh geeze 3+ and rerolls? lordy thats anoying + i have no clue how to calculate reroll 1 miss with digi weps.

Wolf Tooth necklace always allows hits on a 3+ regardless of WS.

I don't see how it isn't mutual death.

Neither has enough oomph to get through a 3++ and 3 or 4 wounds in a single turn (even with charging). They both strike with the same Init when armed with thunderhammers and have the same concussive effects. Then next turn they finish each other off. IWND is only a 5+ (thus far from guaranteed) and as Desubot says, FNP is negated due to S10 on the Wolf lord.

The Chapter Master with Sheild Eternal, AA, Bike, Digital Weapons, and a thunder hammer would win, esp with iron hands tactics.
More wounds, ability to regen lost wounds, and equal attacks on the charge make it a slight victory

They are quite evenly matched, would be an epic slugfest.

Lets try it again.
SW: 5 attacks > 4.44 hits with the rerolls vs t5 > 3.7 wounds > 1.23 unsaved
SM: 4 attacks > 2 hits > 1.94 wounds (i did it as reroll all wounds so this is skewed) > .64 unsaved wounds

Double those for game turns and you have 1.29 for SM
and 2.46 for SW but with chance of gaining back a wound at 5+ it is now 1.64

Both wound kill each other on Turn 3 assuming statistics

 iGuy91 wrote:
The Chapter Master with Sheild Eternal, AA, Bike, Digital Weapons, and a thunder hammer would win, esp with iron hands tactics.
More wounds, ability to regen lost wounds, and equal attacks on the charge make it a slight victory

More attacks? from where, both have 4 natural attacks, the wolf lord gain +1A with the TWC, he have 5 natural attacks, plus +1S and T, with iron hand you have a 33% of chance to regenerate a single wound, just a single wound per turnd, is more a bonus, a little one, i dont see it as a realiable fact to make a edge againts the wolf lord, even with digital weapons, you only reroll one to wound dice

Wait why is the wolf lord hitting on 3+ instead of 4+ as both are ws6?

Because of the wolftooth necklace, always hit on 3+, hence he negate the effect of blind, and counting that the CM is carrying a thunder hammer i would change saga of the beastslayyer for the saga of the bear to gain eternal warrior, wait... lol, he dont need it, the CM even with the thunder hammer is still S8 , i keep saga of the beast slayer rerolling to hit against T5 or better, and always wounding with 2+, with 5 attacks you have a avarege of three wounds per round , i dont see any use of the thunder hammer on the CM, thats why i give hi the burning blade, to gain advantage on the iniative, i dont see any case of the concussive rule against a I1 character, the wolf lord gain more with the thunder hammer against the chapter master, i give him the power fist because is the way i like to build it, jeje, but yes, the thunder hammer is better in this case

I think the more important factor here that we're forgetting is that the SW Lord is riding a wolf.

A wolf.

I'm not entirely sure about the points value there, but the chart of 'inherently awesome' indicates that the SW Lord makes the CM look like a bitch.

As for in game? It's a tough call. I'm inclined to think that the CM would probably win given the goodies they have access to. But I've been proven wrong before, and from the statistics posts so far, it looks to be a pretty even fight.

 Desubot wrote:


Edit: oh geeze 3+ and rerolls? lordy thats anoying + i have no clue how to calculate reroll 1 miss with digi weps.

thats why he is a beast mount on other beast
The wolf lord hit fast, hit hard and make shred the enemy in an single combat round, is a character undervalued and forgotten, since the "shotty trend" of the game, they said that is a ridiculous model and fluff, you know all that thing of being an astartes rideng a giant wolf (we have metal momies, space vampires covers on drops of blood, we have space orks, space nuns, space insects, empty armours, space knights and others things) the wolf lord, even coming from an old codex, still rocks

PD: pardon the rant

Giving it to the Thunderwolf. All the benefits + things like the Wolftooth Necklace + Saga of the Beast Slayer and all those attacks hitting on 3+ combined with more rerolls the the CM makes it go in the Thunderwolf's favor. Lack of Instant Death means the Thunderwolf can rampage on.

Respect to the CM though. This would be a hell of a fight and would come down to some intense battling and combat awesome sauce. But I give the edge to the SW on this one

 Desubot wrote:
Lets try it again.
SW: 5 attacks > 4.44 hits with the rerolls vs t5 > 3.7 wounds > 1.23 unsaved
SM: 4 attacks > 2 hits > 1.94 wounds (i did it as reroll all wounds so this is skewed) > .64 unsaved wounds

Double those for game turns and you have 1.29 for SM
and 2.46 for SW but with chance of gaining back a wound at 5+ it is now 1.64

Both wound kill each other on Turn 3 assuming statistics

Don't forget Hammer of Wrath, which the Wolf Lord gets when it charges in.

 FirePainter wrote:
SM chapter master with iron hands tactics, AA, shield eternal and TH wins hands down. This build is better than the above and would smoke the wolf lord

i love the space marine fanboys, the post was saying you could take any allowed equipment no points limit.

I think the fact that the space wolf wounds on 3+ with rerolls vs the CM who hits on 4+ is the deciding factor. given how popular CM hq's are in lists i d be excited to fight one with my wolf lord.

 Rupertrampton wrote:

 FirePainter wrote:
SM chapter master with iron hands tactics, AA, shield eternal and TH wins hands down. This build is better than the above and would smoke the wolf lord

i love the space marine fanboys, the post was saying you could take any allowed equipment no points limit.

I think the fact that the space wolf wounds on 3+ with rerolls vs the CM who hits on 4+ is the deciding factor. given how popular CM hq's are in lists i d be excited to fight one with my wolf lord.

Not trying to be a fanboy. I personally prefer to have more survivability and in my mind that goes to the CM. I do not have a wolf player in my area so I have no experience with them and was making my claim based on what I have seen which again is not wolfs. But given that both have HoW Wolf gets more attacks and hits better both wound the same no ID for either, IWND for the CM. It is my opinion that the CM is better. I would gladly put that to the test against your wolf lord.

Did we also forget that The Wolf Lord while on a Thunderwolf also has rending while in close combat? So if he is really lucky, he could insta-gib the chapter master.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Lets try it again.
SW: 5 attacks > 4.44 hits with the rerolls vs t5 > 3.7 wounds > 1.23 unsaved
SM: 4 attacks > 2 hits > 1.94 wounds (i did it as reroll all wounds so this is skewed) > .64 unsaved wounds

Double those for game turns and you have 1.29 for SM
and 2.46 for SW but with chance of gaining back a wound at 5+ it is now 1.64

Both wound kill each other on Turn 3 assuming statistics

Don't forget Hammer of Wrath, which the Wolf Lord gets when it charges in.

I discounted on the charge for both of them as they both get HoW

Edit: @Cptskillet, rending doesn't really matter when they both have TH or PF (as with 3rd post example) and besides all calculations where based on 3++ Storm shield.

 Frankenberry wrote:

I'm not entirely sure about the points value there, but the chart of 'inherently awesome' indicates that the SW Lord makes the CM look like a bitch.

You have my vote... and I might want to quote this in my signature if you are cool with it.

Whats really cool about the wolflord is that even if the CM gets the charge, he still gets to lay the hurt thanks to counter charge. The two actually end up with the same number of attacks (even counting HoW). However, if the Wolf Lord get the charge he is up 3 attacks for that round of combat.

Thunderwolf Lords are just nasty and should never be underestimated. In truth they only ever have one job, so yeah, they should be good at it.

If also considering first or second, its possible for the CM to not get a IWND if that player is going second.

would give SW a bit of an edge.