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How would you guys rate this list on a scale of 1 to 10.
1 = Non-competitive play, gaks and giggles
10 = Tournament winning, game breaking

Note: Not interested in list editing/advicing. Just opinions and evalutations (rating) on strengths and weaknesses

2000 Pts - Supplement: Black Legion Roster - Bringers of Despair

HQ:
1 Abaddon the Despoiler, 265 pts
1 Sorcerer in Terminator Armour, 210 pts (MoT; Combi-Force Stave; Mastery Level 3; Gift of Mutation; Spell Familiar; VotLW;Last Memory of Yulanthos)

Elite:
9 Chaos Terminators, 555 pts (The Bringers of Despair; MoT; Power Axe x5; Chainfist x2; Power Fist x2; Combi-Meltagun x3; Reaper Autocannon x2; VotLW)
1 Terminator Champion (Combi-Bolter; Power Maul; VotLW)

Troops:
7 Chosen, 315 pts (Power Axe x2; Power Fist x1; Power Maul x1; VotLW)
1 Chosen Champion (Gift of Mutation; Melta Bombs; Lightning Claw x2; VotLW)
1 Chaos Rhino (Dozer Blade; Combi-Boltgun)

7 Chosen, 315 pts (Power Axe x1; Power Fist x1; Power Maul x2; VotLW)
1 Chosen Champion (Gift of Mutation; Melta Bombs; Lightning Claw x2; VotLW)
1 Chaos Rhino (Dozer Blade; Combi-Boltgun)

Fast Attack:
1 Heldrake, 170 pts (Baleflamer)
1 Heldrake, 170 pts (Baleflamer)

Total Roster Cost: 2000

Very thematic but imo very light on troops, especially for 2000pts.

I would personally drop the chosen (at least one unit) and get a couple of csm squads in rhinos. Either that or gear up the chosen for shooting instead of combat. With those rhinos they will find it hard to get into combat before turn 3 at the earliest, assuming they don't get shot up first.

The helldrakes, sorceror, Abbadon and the termies look fine though.

This is very weak even for friendly game. I would rate it 2-3 (You have Drakes!)

1. You have very little troops. Choosen are good, but as long as they are in LR. Do not ever put choosen on rhino especially with HTH loadout. And you better to give them something to shoot with, this dudes wont kill anything dedicated to HTH. Best way is 5 man squad with plasmas. Also add 4 units of cultists and you are fine.
2. 10 Termies won't kill anything, Most targets you are looking for - are much faster then you and they will shoot you to death. The only way termies work now - is 3 termies with combi-melta or combi-plasma (i wouldn't even bother with marks).
3. You forgot about one of the best CSM units - 5 Havocs with autocanons.

Hope this helps.

This is my 2nd variation of this list essentially an 'improvement' which i played a game with and won against black templars.

And this is why im not looking for 'suggestions' at all the list wont be changed, i simply wanted opinions and ratings for that very reason.

I'm using the stuff i own and playing to a theme. Using the chosen from the DV set which do NOT have ranged weapons, thus my chosen have no ranged wepaons and im not interested in proxies

The other thing is that the chosen RAPE tactical squads. And do pretty good damage against terminators. I've already played with them and my chosen killed all of my opponents tacts squads that they were able to engage as well as putting several wounds on terminators

I didn't forget havoks, they dont' fit in the points for the list the bringers of despair are too expensive and the sorcerer is too useful not to bring along.

Those 10 terminators that you said won't kill anything. I used to deep strike right into the heart of the enemy, putting them in immediate threat range.

The chapter master dropped an OB on me which i survived thanks to the MoT that you say you wouldn't bother with.

And losing bout 5 terms in total i proceeded to wreck face and while i ultimtely lost the entire unit, it took like 6 enemy units to bring me down.

But again i'm not looking for suggestiosn just opinions and i am NOT trying to aim for more competitiveness thus another reason im not looking for suggestions on what to swap

I've run a similar list to this (Abby, 10 termies, 10 chosen, heldrake+other stuff)
Abby's warlord power is a beast if you're fighting marines - re-rolling 1's to hit and wound on every squad within 12" is lethal.

Its harder than people think to kill.

I'd give it a 6.
If you'd used the mark of slaanesh, I'd go to a 7. I5 and fnp makes terminators and chosen so much better for killing marines.

Oh, i see.

 PredaKhaine wrote:
I've run a similar list to this (Abby, 10 termies, 10 chosen, heldrake+other stuff)
Abby's warlord power is a beast if you're fighting marines - re-rolling 1's to hit and wound on every squad within 12" is lethal.

Its harder than people think to kill.

I'd give it a 6.
If you used the mark of slaanesh, I'd go to a 7. I5 and fnp makes terminators and chosen so much better for killing marines.

MoS on the termies is a waste, look at their equipment. Most of their weapons are unwieldy, the 4+ inv is the best choice with potential for MoN to be a top choice too (but considering how easy the unit would get splattered by OB i'd prefer MoT)

My termies have a lot of mace's
I also love FNP. I like having 2 attempts at not being killed

I'll amend though what I said though - if you marked the chosen, I'd go higher

i suppose if your deepstriking the termies its ok i would be tempted to put them in groups of five, however i think a landraider would be great

Honestly if you're deepstriking the Terminators my fear would be with just two Rhinos and two 8 man squads of MEQ you have a definite fear of being shot off the board turn 1 or 2 if you don't get a drake or the Terminators in.

I love the idea of the list but I think against a list with a lot of shooting or poor reserve rolls you could lose this game before the bulk of your points make it on the board.

PredaKhaine wrote:My termies have a lot of mace's
I also love FNP. I like having 2 attempts at not being killed

I'll amend though what I said though - if you marked the chosen, I'd go higher

Again there's a lot of chapter masters out there nowadays...if you marked your terminators and gave them fnp they'd still get splattered by OB and you'd potentially lose a huge chunk of the unit with only a 5+ inv to count on. There's not enough pts to mark the chosen sadly, i would've MoN them otherwise.

Voodoo_Chile wrote:Honestly if you're deepstriking the Terminators my fear would be with just two Rhinos and two 8 man squads of MEQ you have a definite fear of being shot off the board turn 1 or 2 if you don't get a drake or the Terminators in.

I love the idea of the list but I think against a list with a lot of shooting or poor reserve rolls you could lose this game before the bulk of your points make it on the board.

BLOS terrain helps prevent this or rather circumvent for a turn or two. I get to place terrain down, terrain placement is one of the key factors to any game of 40k, people should prioritize it more i hear a lot of 'omg 2 troops you'll be off the table turn 1' then i put a couple of big ass buildings or whatever else i can grab that can block line of sight and suddenly i can't be shot at so easily and they realize the folly in their assumption that they'd just be sniping away at me.

It's the same principle with FMCs, keep them out of view until you are close enough to bash something's face in. I do it with my DPs all the time, fly them behind solid walls.

It's up to you how to go on this one.

One option is to go MoS on the Terminators with the IoE. FNP is very important for a deathstar which is what these guys are once you put Abbadon in front of them to tank wounds. Abbadon with FNP is a win.

If you value MoT, then take MoT off the sorceror and go straight biomancy and try to get Endurance. FNP and IWND on Abbadon is even better. Plus, there are just too many good buffing powers in that tree that you could take advantage of. Think of this as the new Paladin star.

Or, if you want to keep majority toughness 5, do the above with the sorceror and switch their mark to nurgle to represent the biggest, baddest warriors the Black Legion has to offer.

Regardless, if you're going to go with the last memory on the Sorceror it needs a bike to be effective. I'd also try to go LC and PF on the champion of the terminator squad if that's even an option.


Would you be willing to make the chosen shooting oriented? I think they're much better (and cooler!) when they're armed to the teeth with plasmas, meltas and flamers especially when their cruising in a rhino. They can take something stupid like 5 flamers and a combi-flamer... it's 35 points I believe. It's the equivalent of the champion's wargear... lol. It would save you some points and give you the opportunity to take another cheap unit of marines/cultists or perhaps more upgrades. Just think of your sorceror with Iron Arm with that Hand relic... or give him that daemon weapon. There's a lot of fun that can be hand with heroes in the Chaos/BL dexes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just read your post a ways down... sorry about the chosen suggestion. Just ignore it, I'll keep it up for people who are trying to get ideas from this post.

At a minimum I would try the Sorceror changes as you will benefit a lot from losing MoT. He already has a 2+ invuln in the form of LoS.

I'd love to go into detail about how terrible this list looks to me personally, but it seems you'll argue every point anyway!

So in short - deep striking termies are better in squads of 5. 1 squad of 10 makes it very easy for the enemy to turn and focus fire on your big blob.

CC troops in rhinos is absolutely pointless. Whichever turn they get out they can't charge till the turn after! Negates the whole point in a transport to protect them. Also rhinos are incredibly easy first blood points. If people are clever, they'd pop both rhinos first turn so your CC troops are foot slogging. With some bad reserve rolls that could potentially table you before the turkeys/termies arrive.

If I had to rate the list......2. 1 point for each turkey...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, if you're going to take CC units in rhinos, then where the hell are your dirge casters? At least give them a chance of making combat!

As previous posters have commented, this list is light in a few areas. I would consider revising it before spending money on models.

Here are my specific concerns:

1) There are not enough troops. Most armies are going to be able to deal effectively with your Chosen the way they are kitted out.

2) There's a lack of long-range firepower. The Heldrakes are nice but are going to take some turns to arrive. Your other units are ccriented, which means you are not going to be striking much in the early rounds.

3) Too much of your forces are going into reserve. Say, for a moment, you are deepstriking your terminators / HQ choices. That means you are starting the game with 2 Rhinos and nothing else. Most armies have a way to deal with those effectively.

4) There are too many points going into the Terminators. Having 25% of your points tied up into a 10 man unit with a 4+ invulnerable save is asking for trouble.

5) The terminator HQs are incompatible with your assault Chosen. The fact they are terminators means you are losing chances to rout enemies.

Here are some things to consider:

1) Does Abaddon really have a place in this list? What role is he filling?

2) Likewise, does the terminator sorcerer have a place in this list? Is he best used in assault, what kinds of blessing / maledictions are you hoping for with him?

3) Does it make sense to go all assault like this? Shouldn't there be some guns on the board?

4) Does it make sense to spend so many points on equipment for Chosen?

5) Do the Heldrakes really compliment the other things on your list?

6) What is going to get your assault units into assault? If it's Rhinos, how are these fragile metal boxes going to make it to the enemy?

7) Do 10 terminators actually make the unit more survivable?

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
I'd love to go into detail about how terrible this list looks to me personally, but it seems you'll argue every point anyway!

So in short - deep striking termies are better in squads of 5. 1 squad of 10 makes it very easy for the enemy to turn and focus fire on your big blob.

CC troops in rhinos is absolutely pointless. Whichever turn they get out they can't charge till the turn after! Negates the whole point in a transport to protect them. Also rhinos are incredibly easy first blood points. If people are clever, they'd pop both rhinos first turn so your CC troops are foot slogging. With some bad reserve rolls that could potentially table you before the turkeys/termies arrive.

If I had to rate the list......2. 1 point for each turkey...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, if you're going to take CC units in rhinos, then where the hell are your dirge casters? At least give them a chance of making combat!

it's not a suicide term unit. it's a big fat deathstar

cc troops in rhinos are not pointless, you just need to adjust your gaming style to 6th ed rules. Yes it makes it ridiculously harder to pull off an assault out of a vehicle with the whole waiting 1 turn nonsense but there's certainly work arounds.

I also love how you insist i give the rhinos dirge caster while telling me how easy they are to destroy for first blood. Surely you'd think that i'd have common sense enough to know this and not add extra points on the ONLY 2 vehicles in my army where ALL the enemy anti-tank power will be headed. Right?

Dozer Blades are the exception because i fully intend to hide these badboys in some BLOS terrain and rush forward through whatever wall is blocking me as soon as my other units are available to present some target saturation to the enemy.

Thanks for the rating and opinions though.

Let me once again point out that im in no way attempting to build a tournament list, once you and others so eager to drop their comments let this fact sink in, it'll be easier to actually evaluate the list. This is a thematic list i'm sure its not the first you've ever seen



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 techsoldaten wrote:

4) There are too many points going into the Terminators. Having 25% of your points tied up into a 10 man unit with a 4+ invulnerable save is asking for trouble.

I also play Draigowing. This isn't nearly as bad as that as far as points investment. Infact I think i'm getting quite a lot of bang for the buck. I also own 10 hammernators for my space marines thats 450 pts on guys that can't shoot but wreck face in melee. For 100 pts extra i lose +1 inv and massed S8 AP2 melee weapons, but gain a solid firebase with potential to drop any vehicle with 3 combi-meltas. And consistently hurt transports with 2 reaperautocannons, as well as still maintain very poweful close combat prowess. It's not such a bad deal by comparison, so if you wouldn't say that paladins are terrible or that hammernators are terrible, I don't see how you'd judge these guys as terrible.

 techsoldaten wrote:

5) The terminator HQs are incompatible with your assault Chosen. The fact they are terminators means you are losing chances to rout enemies.

No idea what you are on about here...what ever gives you the idea that my HQs are joining the chosen?? I can't think of a single thing that could possibly give anyone that idea.

 techsoldaten wrote:

1) Does Abaddon really have a place in this list? What role is he filling?

2) Likewise, does the terminator sorcerer have a place in this list? Is he best used in assault, what kinds of blessing / maledictions are you hoping for with him?

3) Does it make sense to go all assault like this? Shouldn't there be some guns on the board?

4) Does it make sense to spend so many points on equipment for Chosen?

5) Do the Heldrakes really compliment the other things on your list?

6) What is going to get your assault units into assault? If it's Rhinos, how are these fragile metal boxes going to make it to the enemy?

7) Do 10 terminators actually make the unit more survivable?

1. Yes, he gives preferred enemy to my guys and is pure awesome and fits the theme perfectly as these are abaddon's main guys.
2. Yes he's a terminator, chaos sorcerer are badass, and the terminators can definetly make use of his abilities. Psychic Powers are random and situational. I can't tell you which ones i'm planning to use because I adapt to the game.
3. Yes it makes sense because this is what I own for the specific theme that i'm trying to build the list for. I like shooty chosen as much as anyone, but i'm using DV chosen and they are all kitted out this way. Thus they are cc oriented in my list
4. See #3
5. Yes heldrakes make up for #3
6. They hide behind BLOS terrain preferably not impassible, then i use those nifty dozer blades i paid for and charge forward turn 2 when my other stuff starts coming in and giving the opponent some tough calls to make. Terrain placement is a key part of the game learn to use it, it'll prove very useful.
7. Of course it makes it more survivable, more bodies, more wounds. It's math.

I think you should change the title of your OP to 'please everyone evaluate my list so I can argue every single point as it is physically impossible for me to accept any form of constructive criticism'

Argue all you want , but there's no theme to this list, and clearly winning games is at the forefront of your mind! Hence 2 hell drakes. Why else would 2 units like that sit in a combat themed army?

If you are aware that all the AT weapons will be aimed at those pathetic excuses for transports, then you'll know it has nothing to do with being clever - 9/10 times you'll fail to make any form of combat with them and a lot of points will be lost by being long range shot to pieces!

Trust me, I do understand your passion for a themed list! I do exactly the same. Hence against all advice on here I am still running two Khorne DP's! Even though I know Tzeench ones are better! But I accept the wealth of knowledge on the forum and know that I'll find it hard.

Lastly, you put a lot of emphasis on 'learning how to place terrain'. Sorry, but you're talking crap. Everyone knows how important terrain is, but that doesn't stop the generation of terrain on each segment of the board being a random D3 as per the rules. So relying purely on blocking LOS terrain is a ridiculous strategy.

 Akaiyou wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

4) There are too many points going into the Terminators. Having 25% of your points tied up into a 10 man unit with a 4+ invulnerable save is asking for trouble.

I also play Draigowing. This isn't nearly as bad as that as far as points investment. Infact I think i'm getting quite a lot of bang for the buck. I also own 10 hammernators for my space marines thats 450 pts on guys that can't shoot but wreck face in melee. For 100 pts extra i lose +1 inv and massed S8 AP2 melee weapons, but gain a solid firebase with potential to drop any vehicle with 3 combi-meltas. And consistently hurt transports with 2 reaperautocannons, as well as still maintain very poweful close combat prowess. It's not such a bad deal by comparison, so if you wouldn't say that paladins are terrible or that hammernators are terrible, I don't see how you'd judge these guys as terrible.

Great! If you are comfortable with them as is, go ahead and run them. I have run similar units, there's a reason I don't take them anymore. But your experience may be different.

 Akaiyou wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

5) The terminator HQs are incompatible with your assault Chosen. The fact they are terminators means you are losing chances to rout enemies.

No idea what you are on about here...what ever gives you the idea that my HQs are joining the chosen?? I can't think of a single thing that could possibly give anyone that idea.

You might be in a situation where your Chosen would benefit from having an HQ join the squad, but you can't do that with your list. It is something that is generally important to think about when composing a CSM army. That was my point.

 Akaiyou wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

1) Does Abaddon really have a place in this list? What role is he filling?

2) Likewise, does the terminator sorcerer have a place in this list? Is he best used in assault, what kinds of blessing / maledictions are you hoping for with him?

3) Does it make sense to go all assault like this? Shouldn't there be some guns on the board?

4) Does it make sense to spend so many points on equipment for Chosen?

5) Do the Heldrakes really compliment the other things on your list?

6) What is going to get your assault units into assault? If it's Rhinos, how are these fragile metal boxes going to make it to the enemy?

7) Do 10 terminators actually make the unit more survivable?

1. Yes, he gives preferred enemy to my guys and is pure awesome and fits the theme perfectly as these are abaddon's main guys.
2. Yes he's a terminator, chaos sorcerer are badass, and the terminators can definetly make use of his abilities. Psychic Powers are random and situational. I can't tell you which ones i'm planning to use because I adapt to the game.
3. Yes it makes sense because this is what I own for the specific theme that i'm trying to build the list for. I like shooty chosen as much as anyone, but i'm using DV chosen and they are all kitted out this way. Thus they are cc oriented in my list
4. See #3
5. Yes heldrakes make up for #3
6. They hide behind BLOS terrain preferably not impassible, then i use those nifty dozer blades i paid for and charge forward turn 2 when my other stuff starts coming in and giving the opponent some tough calls to make. Terrain placement is a key part of the game learn to use it, it'll prove very useful.
7. Of course it makes it more survivable, more bodies, more wounds. It's math.

Glad to hear you have it all worked out.

I have points to offer about everything you have said, but realize this is meant to be a 'themed' list other factors don't count. It doesn't sound like you are looking for feedback so much as a rating. My rating would be BIG HEARTS for all the love that goes into the specific structure of the list.

Please let us know how it performs on the table top.

Probably a 4-5.

Melee oriented Chosen can not be effective consistently if they only ride in Rhinos, thanks to the vehicle rules. Chosen mounted in rhinos should always quadruple-up on ranged special weapons.

 Brometheus wrote:
Probably a 4-5.

Melee oriented Chosen can not be effective consistently if they only ride in Rhinos, thanks to the vehicle rules. Chosen mounted in rhinos should always quadruple-up on ranged special weapons.

See this is the type of response I was looking for. I dunno what's with everyone else's ego that can't just follow the actual thread instructions of giving a rate if they like an opiinon that isn't riddled with suggestions on what to change sheesh.

Thank you sir Brometheus for being one of the few.

The few, the proud, the obsessively sorcerous.

I rate at 4, and would think my average 1500 point list would have a chance.

Pop rhino's, ignore chosen for a few turns while they plod forwards, concentrate down deep striking terminators.

I'd give it a 4. I'd agree with bromethues, the closest chosen get to doing a job as well as another unit is quadrupling up on ranged special weapons like havocs. But unlike havocs they're troops and have 2 attacks base. Give em 4 plasma guns or whatever and wreck face

And I agree with everyone saying you have very few units on the board at first. Not generally a problem but you may find yourself in a tough spot against a fireline tau army. Consider finding some terrain cover for your rhinos until termies/heldrakes come in.

Sorcerer is great for this if he rolls telepathy. Invisiblity could give both chosen squads a 2+ cover save if you find some terrain.

Good luck! Black legion can be tough to work out.

Thanks for the rate and reviews I appreciate it.

 Akaiyou wrote:

See this is the type of response I was looking for. I dunno what's with everyone else's ego that can't just follow the actual thread instructions of giving a rate if they like an opiinon that isn't riddled with suggestions on what to change sheesh.

Sure, then I would rate this about a 4. This list has a lack of sustained firepower, fragile transports, and an overreliance on Heldrakes. It's pretty easy to see how a competent opponent would get first blood and about 4 VPs in the first 3 rounds with a TAC list. That deficit might be very difficult to overcome facing a competitive army.

In terms of what to change:

- Eliminate the Rhinos altogether.
- Give the Chosen heavy weapons (preferably flamers or plasma), eliminate most of their current upgrades.
- Eliminate the Terminators altogether, replace them with autocannon havocks (if you want to do more shots per round), laspreds (if you want to know you are blowing things up when you shoot them), or Obliterators (if you want something with hirepower and an invulnerable save).
- Swap Abaddon for a CL in order to save points and get access to Black Legion artefacts.
- Add more units, give your opponents something to target besides your best troops. It's up to you what to do, but I would bet MoK CSMs would give you the same number of attacks per round at 2/3rds the points plus USRs that are more favorable to what you are trying to do.
- Take an additional fast attack option, something that will be on the board in the first round and has the ability to survive a couple rounds of shooting.

Is that what you were looking for?

Not looking to change things, as mentioned before.

However the first portion of your response was def good review. And i can agree with that assessment

1 for sure.

Even in casual play, you need more troops. Particularly at this point range. Your two Chosen units are costing 80+ points more than decked out Grey Hunter units will while not bringing any real shooting capability. They aren't very amazing in close combat compared to other options in the Chaos Codexes either. It would be surprising if they were able to get into close combat, given they can't charge out of the Rhino.

The Terminators are not taking advantage of how deadly they could be either. Combi-Weapons could turn that unit into something at least approaching scary. 492 points is still too much in my opinion, I'd cut the unit down to 5 probably, but being able to take x8 Combi-Weapons at BS 5 and Deep Striking anywhere on the table is more useful than the way you have them setup now. Maybe if they were in a Land Raider the story would be different, but then Chaos Land Raiders are considered bad for a reason.

There's a lot of scary in the Chaos Space Marine Codex that is suspiciously absent from here...

Sure, it's not always easy to edit a list once you already have a plan for what to bring.

Let us know how your list performs on the table top. I would be interested in knowing how it fares against various armies.

I give it a 3 from what everyone else has said. Have you considered taking the VotLW off the chosen and trying to add on a squad of cultists? (Abbadon will be primary detachment, sorcerer would be BL supplement with cultists as troops)

I'd give it about a 2 because it is extremely light on Troops

FML people just don't read....or don't care to even read directions. I'm gonna have to put it in huge letters or something.

Dunno how else to state that i am not interested in suggestions or list edits.

For those of you that actually did read and follow the instructions thank you very much, for your rate and review. It's appreciated.