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My daughter and I have the IoB box set, and are set as Skaven for one army. In addition we also have a box of plague monks, doom wheel, and screaming bell. We are looking now between starting a DoC or DE as a second army for us to use together. We love the look of both right now to be honest. Is there a big difficulty or balance difference in using one or the other in games against Skaven with two new players? We would still want to use all rules as correctly written, but are not looking to play out competitively against others.

I realize this may be a broad question, but so far I can only compare the two in that we both like the way they look, and the desire to paint one or the other army (again along with the Skaven we have now).

Thanks for any info as we are at about 50/50 between the two...

Both are really fun armies, but if you're just starting I think Dark Elves would be easier from a rules standpoint.

What I mean is, Dark Elf special rules are always consistent and don't change. With DoC, each turn during the magic phase something happens that can dramatically change your army, and also often adds some new rules that you have to remember.

Between learning all the new rules in the main rule book, on top of learning the specialized rules in the army books, I think DE will prove easier, and they also have a good variety of builds and strong units. This is coming from a guy with a DoC army that enjoys it, but in the end I think DE's will provide a more consistent and enjoyable experience. PLUS DE vs Skaven just sounds like a sneaky good time!

Bottom line though, you can't go wrong with either army, an DoC will be easier to paint, but from a new player point of view DE will cause you less noodle scratchers.

One of the biggest factors is definitely going to be aesthetics. As Riburn said, though, DE is going to be a little more 'normal' in terms of actual gameplay. DOC break or bend a lot of rules and introduce some wackiness. If that sounds like fun, don't let it scare you off, but just be prepared to do a little more mental work separating DOC's rules from the main rulebook.

So basically, if Skaven fills your wacky rules quota, go DE. If the crazy special rules seem fun, take a look at DoC.

Don't worry at ALL about the balance. The only armies to avoid in that regard for new players would be Wood Elves, Brets, Beastmen, and maybe Tomb Kings. Every other army is on a strong level without having to jump through intricate hoops like those four. DE and DOC are both very solid, whether you're competitive or not, so just focus on the style that appeals for you two.

Each army will have its own little twists that adapt the rules and change things up a bit. So Daemons are not alone in operating "differently" because that is how GW writes rules. Core rules and then each army has its own little bits that defy or change the core - some a little and some lots.

Daemons have a special setup whereby winds of magic and combat resolution can both trigger events which can be very good or can be totall destruction. It' adds an element of random to playing Daemons that some people dislike and others love.


In the end if its gameplay see if there's a local store/club where you can try them out or at least read the codex .After that its a looks game.

Theme wise Daemon can run mono-god as a theme - though generally if you leave out 3/4 of the army you'll have some gaps; but it can make for some nice fluffy/theme lists and armies.

One thing you'll often hear under the current book about DoC is 'Go Nurgle or Go Home.'
Basically, DoC is really suffering in terms of viable choices right now due to very poor internal balancing while the game itself overall has shifted towards lots of high armour saves, monstrous units and ASF being almost everywhere it seems. (damn elves!)

Fortunately, Skaven is a pretty balanced match-up for them as they lack all of the above. Thus, DoC can use more varied units and builds as Skaven don't outfight them horrifically like Warriors or Chaos or High/Dark Elves do, while the ratboys also don't have entire armies of 1+/2+ saves, nor can they use what is known as a 'Light Council' (light magic is *really* deadly to Daemons & Undead!) to steamroll them in the Magic Phase.

As long as you're just keeping things for now between Skaven & DoC, then you can probably have a bunch of fun without getting overly frustrated by the rather poor book Daemons are currently saddled with.
And while learning the game itself, it's also perfectly fine to simply ignore the entire Reign of Chaos table until you become comfortable with the basics of the rules, etc...
The rolling for your Gifts isn't nearly as big of an issue as it is in 40k, since only your Heralds, Daemon Prince and/or Greater Daemons can get them. (in the other game, every unit champion for example also gets access to Gifts)

Plus, going DoC means you also have a 40k army all ready to go if you decide in a few years perhaps to try the other game as well!

Two things

1) Kairos Fateweaver - soo many spells so much fun - expensive model on the table at 565 points but lots of magical fun there in the Daemon army!

2) If you decide to go for making Daemons into a warhammer and 40K army then you've a little extra work. Use round bases for anything like infantry (or similarly based models) and then you can use a movement tray (with either round slots cut in or magnets) to position them for fantasy.
Most other models have one base bigger than the other so its just a case of using the smaller base and fitting magnets to attach the other when needed. Bloodcrushers are the only annoyance as their two bases don't fit together well; so just use a regular sized round base with magnets onto both of the bloodcrushers proper bases.

Thanks. For all the help. I'm really leaning towards Daemons. Is it best to stay with one faction (Khorne, Nurgle,...), or can they be mixed together? I found an older battalion box at a local store that contains 20x Bloodletters+ 10 Pink horrors+ 10 Daemonettes + 5 Seekers that I may pick up. I also like the sound of Kairos Fateweaver, but I'm wondering if a mono army is needed with a hero like that...

Again, sorry for all the questions as I have had the IoB set for some time now, but I am just getting around to starting to learn about the game itself.

Hoggle wrote:
Thanks. For all the help. I'm really leaning towards Daemons. Is it best to stay with one faction (Khorne, Nurgle,...), or can they be mixed together? I found an older battalion box at a local store that contains 20x Bloodletters+ 10 Pink horrors+ 10 Daemonettes + 5 Seekers that I may pick up. I also like the sound of Kairos Fateweaver, but I'm wondering if a mono army is needed with a hero like that...

Again, sorry for all the questions as I have had the IoB set for some time now, but I am just getting around to starting to learn about the game itself.

First off, that old Battalion set is gold! Grab it ASAP (the new current one is simply a bit too unfocused and gives too many minimum sized units)

Mono-god is half the fun of Chaos, but be warned that Khorne & Tzeentch are much weaker than Nurgle, (who can be utterly game-wrecking), and Slaanesh.
Vs. Skaven, it's less of an issue for Khorne/Tzeentch as Skaven aren't the scariest fighters out there, while their magic isn't nearly as dominating as say Shadow, Death & Light magic can be.

The really cool thing with Kairos is you can tailor his spell set-up to perfectly compliment & support any type of list, mono-god or pantheon. In a Tzeentch army for example, you can take a Fire spell to negate any ill-effects of Warpflame, while boosting your combat capabilities with Mindrazor. (that spell makes pretty much anything stupid-killy!)
For a Khornate or Slaaneshii army, Lore of Light spells such as Pha's/Birona's Timewarp + Flesh to Stone from Life turn your otherwise squishy units into anvils that can blend the enemy into a fine red mist.
Whatever you need, Kairos can give you the near-complete tool kit you're after.

Having owned both armies, just sold my daemons, play dark elves. Much better book, multiple playable builds, almost nothing is useless and really good internal balance, only warlocks are stupid good, dark riders are close! Can go competitive or fluffy.
Daemons have at most 3 competitive builds. The randomness makes consistency impossible which makes tournament success a challenge,
I found daemons a lot more expensive to purcharsr

Hoggle wrote:
Thanks. For all the help. I'm really leaning towards Daemons. Is it best to stay with one faction (Khorne, Nurgle,...), or can they be mixed together? I found an older battalion box at a local store that contains 20x Bloodletters+ 10 Pink horrors+ 10 Daemonettes + 5 Seekers that I may pick up. I also like the sound of Kairos Fateweaver, but I'm wondering if a mono army is needed with a hero like that...

Again, sorry for all the questions as I have had the IoB set for some time now, but I am just getting around to starting to learn about the game itself.

To be honest, since you are just playing very friendly games within your family, buy whatever units and models you like. You are going to hear lots of people tell you what is good or bad in a DoC army, but that doesn't matter in a friendly environment. Mono armies seem to be preferred in this edition mainly because demons of different marks cant join units or benefit from leadership of demons of a different mark. That said, most armies will have some form of variety mixed in to cater to the strengths and weaknesses of what their core is. Basically, if you like the way something looks, go for it! Even though some units are better then others in a DoC army, there really aren't many terrible choices.

riburn3 wrote:

To be honest, since you are just playing very friendly games within your family, buy whatever units and models you like. You are going to hear lots of people tell you what is good or bad in a DoC army, but that doesn't matter in a friendly environment. Mono armies seem to be preferred in this edition mainly because demons of different marks cant join units or benefit from leadership of demons of a different mark. That said, most armies will have some form of variety mixed in to cater to the strengths and weaknesses of what their core is. Basically, if you like the way something looks, go for it! Even though some units are better then others in a DoC army, there really aren't many terrible choices.

Everything he said. In a friendly game, having an awesome army is way more important than having a 'good' army. Having it play well is certainly important, but don't worry yourself too much over balance, you'll just have to experiment a little to see what works and what doesn't for you. Emphasis there. Don't let the internet drag you down on what units are terrible.

That being said, if you want to get a taste of what style they have, pick up the book and play some proxy games. Swap in units and play again. See what works for you, what doesn't, then pick up the models that both play well and look good in your eyes. Simple as that.

That ALSO being said, I understand having a decent basis for a reasonably 'workable' army is a good idea. I'll let others handle that, though, as I can't really give an informed opinion on specifics for DoC!

Most armies after a few months of release of the codex tend to boil down to only a handful of "competitive builds" (with the possible exception of some very large armies like Marines). As a result you'll normally hear about the limitations more than the gains.

Daemons can work mono-god as a theme force, but in general you'll want to mix the gods a little as each god has its own units that have specific niche pockets where they work well. Khorne for example, has one of the best ranged options in the Skull Cannon (and Daemons have a limited number of ranged options and many are Tzeentch with Warpfire which has the chance to either do extra damage or give units struck regeneration!)

Have a read of the codex and take a look at things. I would suggest picking one or two gods to start with and building up a decent force (esp of troops) for that god and then slowly expanding into the others. That way you've a strong core which you can expand from.

This is fantasy bub.
I'd go DE all the way. The daemons just rant that much fun and the randomness can really be frustrating at times