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******* Edit ********

Ok, from all the comments and criticism - some blunt but appreciated nonetheless
New poll (hopefully), please let me know if it's any better.

I've made another list. With some adjustments.

Aegis - Gone
Telion - Gone
Whilrwind - Gone
Predators - Gone

Combat squad - Added
Ironclad in Drop pod - Added
Thunderhammer Terminators - Added

HQ
Tigurius 165

Troops
Combat Squad
Combat Squad
Scout Squad

Elites
Terminators TH/SS
Ironclad Dreadnought
Drop pod

Fast Attack
Stormtalon
Stormtalon
Stormtalon

********


Hey guys,

I've got a gunline army that I've been having success with at 1200 points, having only lost one game in 15 or so. However I've made some amendments and I'd like to see what people think about it and how it could be improved as a TAC list perhaps even tournament competitive.

HQ
Librarian Tigurius - 165

Troops
Combat Squad - 90
5 men
Lascannon

Scout Squad - 190
Snipers
Camo Cloaks
Telion

Aegis Defence Line w/ Quad gun - 100

Fast Attack
Stormtalon - 125
Skyhammer Missile Launcher

Stormtalon - 125
Skyhammer Missile Launcher

Stormtalon - 125
Skyhammer Missile Launcher

Heavy Support
Predator - 95
Heavy bolters

Predator - 95
Heavy bolters

Whirlwind - 65

1175/1200 - 25 points spare

Concept, everything sits behind the Aegis, while the fliers hassle everything else. Simple enough. Tigurius buffs the scouts, with Telion behind the Aegis.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So far, votes. But no justifications for them :/ What am I doing wrong?

You're lacking troops..... you have 5 MEQ and 10 Scouts. I could kill those two squads in less than half a turn's shooting.

2+ cover saves on the scouts? I'd be surprised.

He's right, not enough troops at 1200. It's not feasible.

Take it to the 1500 pts level, take an extra 325 pts of troops, and you're there

limited troops
limited force projection (aka no mobility)
no way to get multiple objectives
limited anti AV14

Your 2+ cover on the scouts means nothing to my ignores cover tau. Those tanks are easy pickings for deepstriking melta suits. Snipers are good but your only AP3 or better is rending you have no way to deal with MEQ.

This list would be great against orks but I don't think much else. I give it a 2

I think more troops are a good shout. However the number of wounds put out is enough to take out power armour.

Deepstriking melta have to go in front of the line and gives me my cover saves. With the risk of scattering on my line, they have to move out of melta range.

The talons will be sufficient av14.

13 S7 shots, 12 TL S6 shots, 12 S5 shots, and a large blast are not a lot of fire power given that MEQ get armor saves against all of it (minus 1-2 rends).

Again even if I am infront of your line my melta suits can have ignores cover and paste your tanks.

I am an advocate of using assault cannons as av14 killers but they are not there T1. Even if the talons come in T2 those land raiders have delivered their contents into your thin lines and begun killing scoring units.

Against a mobile player (eldar, tau, cron air, deamons etc.) they can just stay out of range and LOS until they need to claim objectives. The list you have has no way to influence the other side of the board no area denial, space control type units. The talons are nice but remember even as fliers they are flimsy and easy to take down

is 5 the best or 5 the worst for the vote lol.

trade agis for more tac marines.

you need more troops

I'd say you've not played too much power armour mate. Plenty of wounds would come from those shots and plenty of marines dead.

And the melta would be out of range or face death/delay by mishap.

Land raiders couldn't deliver until t3, by which time the talons and support would have done their job.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
is 5 the best or 5 the worst for the vote lol.

trade agis for more tac marines.

you need more troops

the Aegis is a bit intrinsic to the gunline. But I may use the spare points and drop the whirlwind for objectives.

 FirePainter wrote:
limited troops
limited force projection (aka no mobility)
no way to get multiple objectives
limited anti AV14

Your 2+ cover on the scouts means nothing to my ignores cover tau. Those tanks are easy pickings for deepstriking melta suits. Snipers are good but your only AP3 or better is rending you have no way to deal with MEQ.

This list would be great against orks but I don't think much else. I give it a 2

Exactly my feelings on the list as well (and I also gave it a 2. looks like it could be interesting to TRY, but the lack of troops .. yikes)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

smithy12262 wrote:
I'd say you've not played too much power armour mate. Plenty of wounds would come from those shots and plenty of marines dead.

And the melta would be out of range or face death/delay by mishap.

Land raiders couldn't deliver until t3, by which time the talons and support would have done their job.

Hmm. So you want peoples opinions, but you don't really. Gotcha.

My tfcs would wreck you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I take two at 1000. What would be your answer to them, assuming they're either in bolstered terrain or out of LOS?

Rorschach9 wrote:

 FirePainter wrote:
limited troops
limited force projection (aka no mobility)
no way to get multiple objectives
limited anti AV14

Your 2+ cover on the scouts means nothing to my ignores cover tau. Those tanks are easy pickings for deepstriking melta suits. Snipers are good but your only AP3 or better is rending you have no way to deal with MEQ.

This list would be great against orks but I don't think much else. I give it a 2

Exactly my feelings on the list as well (and I also gave it a 2. looks like it could be interesting to TRY, but the lack of troops .. yikes)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

smithy12262 wrote:
I'd say you've not played too much power armour mate. Plenty of wounds would come from those shots and plenty of marines dead.

And the melta would be out of range or face death/delay by mishap.

Land raiders couldn't deliver until t3, by which time the talons and support would have done their job.

Hmm. So you want peoples opinions, but you don't really. Gotcha.

Opinions I need, but only supported ones. Unless I'm mistaken a land raider couldn't deploy it's payload until t3. And deep striking against a gun line near a table edge is a big risk.

Yes I don't have too much in terms of troops, large blast wouldn't be fun and I wont have much say on the opposing players edge.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jamo wrote:
My tfcs would wreck you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I take two at 1000. What would be your answer to them, assuming they're either in bolstered terrain or out of LOS?

Thunderfire would be a problem. I space my units out, but it'd still be an issue. Perfect timing with Tigurius hopefully, and the snipers should take one a turn. If you're out of LOS, then the talons would have to try and root you out. Your indirect fire would help my cause. I'd be forced to take your troops out I think.

Alright, I'll take your feedback, come up with something and get your thoughts again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Alright, changes made in the OP.

What do you think now?

smithy12262 wrote:

******* Edit ********

Ok, from all the comments and criticism - some blunt but appreciated nonetheless
New poll (hopefully), please let me know if it's any better.

I've made another list. With some adjustments.

Aegis - Gone
Telion - Gone
Whilrwind - Gone
Predators - Gone

Combat squad - Added
Ironclad in Drop pod - Added
Thunderhammer Terminators - Added

HQ
Tigurius 165

Troops
Combat Squad
Combat Squad
Scout Squad

Elites
Terminators TH/SS
Ironclad Dreadnought
Drop pod

Fast Attack
Stormtalon
Stormtalon
Stormtalon

********

Okay more troops this is good. But what are those combat squads armed with? I would assume heavies in that case I would suggest either plasma cannons or las cannons to give you more influence downfield. Next the termies. To be honest while TH/SS guys are great since they are footslogging they will get gunned down before reaching combat. If they sit in your line as a counter charge unit they have turned into an expensive paper weight, if they deepstrike they will again get shot to pieces before doing anything.

I don't like single drop pods just a preference of mine. I feel that if you are going to go that route you should do it with at least 3 but that is up to your playstyle.

Also something I did not mention earlier, this list does not make much use of your chapter tactics just some more food for thought. And the snipers I think you may be overestimating their damage potential even a ten man squad. 10 shots 5 hit 2.5 wound on average. Even if you got to shoot at a TFC (unlikely now that they have barrage) it still has a 3+ armor or 2+ if the tech is in front and thus you are banking on rends to kill it.

As for the landraiders distance, lets assume you deploy in a corner. I flatout T1 for 12in. T2 I move 6in deploy 6in and have a possible 12in charge that is 36in of movement possible by T2 if you are far enough away to make that charge unreasonable then I can just sit back and hold all the objectives and wait you out or just keep going as by that point it doesn't matter if your talons kill them they have served the purpose of geeting guys into your lines and doing it quickly.

And I do play PA both vanilla marine and DA. Lets take the shots I listed before13 S7 shots, 12 TL S6 shots, 12 S5 shots. On average BS4 that is 9 S7, 10 S6 shots and 8 S5 shots hitting. Those cause roughly 25 wounds of which 17 are saved. So you get 8 unsaved wounds not counting the troops or the whirlwind. That is not enough to kill one tactical squad and a good portion of those shots are not present on T1.

I apologize if I seem blunt but these are my thoughts on what you have listed. Remember it all comes down to playstyle and I fall into the boys before toys group so the lack of bodies is not something I like. If it works for you run with it and have fun.

The tacticals are armed with a Lascannon.

In larger games, my solitary pod and DS'ing Terminators would be fodder, agreed. But in 1200 TAC lists, at least with what I've seen in my meta, they survive quite well.

To be honest, they are more of a harrassment unit, especially the dread, popping tanks with melta. And taking all the fire from my scouts and tanks. The terminators are for MCs or TEQ.

I'm an Ultramarines player, my army, characters, fluff its Ultra, so even if it doesn't suit, I'm still doing it

I understand your points on the snipers, but with Telion on the quad, and Tigurius buffing, it looks a bit better. So, 4 s7 w/Telion and T/L = 2 wounds or 3.5ish on the Techmarine, 9 snipers = 3 more wounds plus any rends. Which looks a bit better. But I get where you're coming from.

And I know you probably know enough about power armour, it was just a butt-hurt reaction of mine, so sorry bro. I get your points again, but with the Tiggy buffs and strafing run from the Talons being bs5 against most, I should get a bit more dead marine for my money.

Out of interest then, what would you field?
At the moment, I've only got 10 Tacticals and 10 Sniper scouts as troops. I also REALLY want to keep Tigurius and the Talons, how would you personally make a list aroudn that?

The tacticals are armed with a Lascannon.

A good choice I like it.

In larger games, my solitary pod and DS'ing Terminators would be fodder, agreed. But in 1200 TAC lists, at least with what I've seen in my meta, they survive quite well.

If it works for your meta roll with it. Too often lists on dakka are disscused with tournaments in mind and don't need to be able to tackle a riptide bomb or screamerstar. So go for it

To be honest, they are more of a harrassment unit, especially the dread, popping tanks with melta. And taking all the fire from my scouts and tanks. The terminators are for MCs or TEQ.

If you are using the dread as a T1 melta I would change it to a regular dread just to save some points. the AV13 is nice but being that you are going to their deploment zone they most likely will get someone with a rear armor shot.

I'm an Ultramarines player, my army, characters, fluff its Ultra, so even if it doesn't suit, I'm still doing it

Noted and approved

I understand your points on the snipers, but with Telion on the quad, and Tigurius buffing, it looks a bit better. So, 4 s7 w/Telion and T/L = 2 wounds or 3.5ish on the Techmarine, 9 snipers = 3 more wounds plus any rends. Which looks a bit better. But I get where you're coming from.

Again if you like running telion do it he is good 4 S7 precision hits are nothing to forget

And I know you probably know enough about power armour, it was just a butt-hurt reaction of mine, so sorry bro. I get your points again, but with the Tiggy buffs and strafing run from the Talons being bs5 against most, I should get a bit more dead marine for my money.

No hard feelings. And Tiggy is one of if not the best thing in the codex so I encourage you to use him. Yeah I did not account for the BS5 talons however I still feel that compared to what I could field with my tau it just seems like not a lot of dakka

Out of interest then, what would you field?
At the moment, I've only got 10 Tacticals and 10 Sniper scouts as troops. I also REALLY want to keep Tigurius and the Talons, how would you personally make a list aroudn that?

Okay so me (again a boys before toys guy). I would take
Tiggy 165
3 talons 375
dread w/ Dpod 135?
2 full tac squads (or if you want more heavies run as 4 combat squad) ~320
Aegis w/ quad 100
fill the last bit of point with either scouts or a dakka pred (I would do scout as I don't like running single vehicles )

For me personally its not the type of list that I would run. I would be taking more tactical and devestator squads to use the chapter tactics. I would leave out the dread and vehicles (minus the talons) and take more tacticals and devs. Arm the tacs with specials deploy the aegis mid field and move them up as area denial and have the devs sit back in cover and do what they do with the heavies

*EDIT* Also out of curiousity why 1200 and not 1500?

Yeah, I get your play style. Plenty of bodies on the table.

As you can see, I'm (too far) on the other end of the spectrum.

Though I'm defensive with my scoring units until I need to pounce, out of LoS/range etc.

Your list is interesting and might be worth a try once I get and paint more tactical marines.

Also, a completely different set of units, but what do you think about this 1200?


HQ
Tigurius

10 man Tactical Squad
10 man Scouts - Cloaks, Snipers (Tigurius goes here)

8 man Sternguard (2 combi-flamer, 2 combi-meltas). Drop Pod
8 man Vanguard (no jump-packs)

Storm Talon - Skyhammer Missle Launcher
Storm Raven - Multi Melta (Vanguard go here)

Tacticals and Scouts largely hide first turn until it's safe to come out


Oh, and 1200 because that's the size of the normal evening games at my local GW.

Edit - how to spell? *derp*

Cover isn't good in this edition. How would your cover saves help you when I drop my 10x Man Sternguard w/ 2 Heavy Flamers, 2 Combi Flamers in one combat squad and 5 combi meltas in the other. In addition to the ignores cover bolter shots thats 2 S5 AP 4 and 2 S4 AP 5 Flamer Templates on the Scouts in addition to an Ignores Cover Bolter. You'll have the Scouts destroyed turn 1 and a tank destroyed turn one. I could also easily wipe the marines from a scattering template or two. That's just Marines, imagine what Tau would do to you.......By the way, at 1200 pts I run 20 Marines in 4 Pods and 5 scouts in a LSS. YMMV