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I am painting up a Havoc squad, which I am going to field with 3 lascannons and a missile launcher. (Would prefer 4 lascannons, but I only had 3 available.) Now, I often see recommendations to include a few additional models to absorb wounds without losing the valuable heavy weapons. How many of these would you recommend that I include?

It should be noted that the squad will have MoN.

I find that 7 models in total is pretty nice. 3 extra bodies to take the heat. Maybe do 8 since you're doing a lot of pricey weapons

 chillis wrote:
I find that 7 models in total is pretty nice. 3 extra bodies to take the heat. Maybe do 8 since you're doing a lot of pricey weapons

>havocs without autocannons

plus eight is the number of chaos.

 g0atsticks wrote:

 chillis wrote:
I find that 7 models in total is pretty nice. 3 extra bodies to take the heat. Maybe do 8 since you're doing a lot of pricey weapons

>havocs without autocannons

plus eight is the number of chaos.

Autocannons are cool. I would have taken them, but I don't have a single autocannon, much less four. I could have grabbed the havoc box I suppose, but that's still just one.

Besides, I needed anti-tank. And I am not that cheesy.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 g0atsticks wrote:

 chillis wrote:
I find that 7 models in total is pretty nice. 3 extra bodies to take the heat. Maybe do 8 since you're doing a lot of pricey weapons

>havocs without autocannons

plus eight is the number of chaos.

Autocannons are cool. I would have taken them, but I don't have a single autocannon, much less four. I could have grabbed the havoc box I suppose, but that's still just one.

Besides, I needed anti-tank. And I am not that cheesy.

Understandable, nothing cheesy about it, thats what havocs do. We use a lot of proxies and such where I play so LC, ML, AC.....its all the same to us.

If you are shelling out for MoN then isn't that your safety net rather than the extra models?

If you position the havocs well - blooming miles away from small arms fire - then you are wasting the MoN and could forgo it to pay for an extra model or two.

How about leaving out the MoN, the extra three models, and the missile launcher to free up a load of points to go towards something else. If your struggling to take a tank down with 3 lascannons an extra missile launcher isn't going to help you too much.

My rule of thumb for Havocs is an extra 1 for every gun. 8 in a unit is not a bad configuration, just keep the guys without the guns slightly closer.

When I do run havocs, they generally fill an important role and I take measures to keep them in the game. I have used MoN on them but generally take MoS and IoE for a couple reasons. First off, when my Havocs are being shot at, it's generally not with bolters and I am going to fail some saves. The FNP gives me that second chance that is so important and sometimes better than the natural save.

Second, no one expects assault havocs. On the off chance they are ever charged (which is not often, but it happens) they have some killing power with the higher initiative. This has been important maybe in 3 games since the start of 6th edition.

I could see taking them without marks as well. My havocs don't get shot at often, less than half my games.

 Jasper wrote:
If you are shelling out for MoN then isn't that your safety net rather than the extra models?

If you position the havocs well - blooming miles away from small arms fire - then you are wasting the MoN and could forgo it to pay for an extra model or two.

How about leaving out the MoN, the extra three models, and the missile launcher to free up a load of points to go towards something else. If your struggling to take a tank down with 3 lascannons an extra missile launcher isn't going to help you too much.

Well, you could say that a Riptide with Stimulant Injector is wasting points as well if nobody shoots at it. But 40K is tactics and psychology as well. The more effort your opponent must devote to get rid of that havoc squad, the less likely he is actually do it and instead focus on closer threats (Kharn and friends closing in, for example.). The missile launcher, aside from already being modelled onto a undercoated and waiting-in-line model, has its use; if you fire on a nasty looted wagon with a boomgun (Yes, they might not be supercompetetive, but in my meta I am likely to face them) and I miss with two lascannons, I very much like that extra s8 shot.

The MoN really is more for fluff reasons then anything else. I modelled my Havocs with chaos icons much like the ones they have in the Space Marine game; in that game, it offers additional resilience, something that I felt MoN represented accurately gamewise. Of course, FnP is very viable for that as well, so I might go with techsoldaten's route and grab MoS.

And you say 1 for every gun, do you count in the Champion in those 8? (Thus meaning I'd add an additional 3 models to my existing squad.)

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
... so I might go with techsoldaten's route and grab MoS.

And you say 1 for every gun, do you count in the Champion in those 8? (Thus meaning I'd add an additional 3 models to my existing squad.)

How does Khorne feel about MoS??? Unfavorably!

 g0atsticks wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
... so I might go with techsoldaten's route and grab MoS.

And you say 1 for every gun, do you count in the Champion in those 8? (Thus meaning I'd add an additional 3 models to my existing squad.)

How does Khorne feel about MoS??? Unfavorably!

But WAAC maaaaaaaaaaan!!!!!!

No but really... My army is not Word Bearers, they are not -that- fanatical about keeping sacred numbers etc.

7 or 8 is a good number for a 4x heavy Weapon Havoc Squad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:


Autocannons are cool. I would have taken them, but I don't have a single autocannon, much less four. I could have grabbed the havoc box I suppose, but that's still just one.

Besides, I needed anti-tank. And I am not that cheesy.

You can get Auto Cannons that fit Space Marine and Chaos Space Marine bolter hands in packs of either 5 or 10 (can't recall) from Forge World.

I always try to bring at least 1 spare body per heavy weapon model in my units of Havocs, simply to park them in front of the heavy weapon model so they eat wounds.

I also enjoy playing fun little tricks with Rhinos, were you combat speed > disembark, shoot then block LOS with the rhino after you've shot with your flat out move so your Havocs cannot be shot back at.

GoliothOnline wrote:
I always try to bring at least 1 spare body per heavy weapon model in my units of Havocs, simply to park them in front of the heavy weapon model so they eat wounds.

I also enjoy playing fun little tricks with Rhinos, were you combat speed > disembark, shoot then block LOS with the rhino after you've shot with your flat out move so your Havocs cannot be shot back at.

A trick I am aware of, I assume you saw the recently posted thread that said this.

But their weapons are heavy, so it is not perfect.

 Jasper wrote:
If you are shelling out for MoN then isn't that your safety net rather than the extra models?

Mark of Nurgle doesn't protect Havocs. Havoc are long range guys, ergo, things firing back at them are long range. Nearly all long range weapons are also high strength weapons.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Jasper wrote:
If you are shelling out for MoN then isn't that your safety net rather than the extra models?

Mark of Nurgle doesn't protect Havocs. Havoc are long range guys, ergo, things firing back at them are long range. Nearly all long range weapons are also high strength weapons.

This may be the most sensible thing I've ever read on this sight, and the thought has never once crossed my mind. You can't argue with this logic. Whats T5 when its a S7 weapon and up?

Heh... it is a 2+ to wound, that is what T 5 is. You put MoN on Oblits because they have 2 wounds and thus do not get insta-jibbed by the first lascannon shot that you fail your 5++ on.

To be honest, if you want to fluff them up and say they are Nurgle Havocs, that is fine. But the /only/ thing I would spend points on is a Icon of Vengeance so they don't run away when 2 guys die... and when you fail that leadership roll and realize your remaining guys are 9-10" away from the table edge you will curse the day you bought Havocs. Thus, I don't use Havocs and use two LC sponson Preds instead for 115pts. AV 13 is pretty good, it will never run, and it is cheaper than 2xLCs and a AC havoc squad. Give the Pred a Havok Launcher and your still cheaper than a 6 man 4x AC havoc squad.

But if your going to do Havocs, go 8-10 guys and get a IoV and protect that Icon bearer. I would also suggest a ADL with either weapon... maybe for a all Lascannon squad I would get the Lascannon so you can fire 5 lascannons at a single target. Not much will survive that and your Havocs can really use the cover save from the return fire.

3 guys and MoN on 8
or spend a few more points and get
vs ADL with Quad Gun

The ADL gives 5 guys an invulnerable save (Great vs high str weapons), and your sgt. mans the best AA you can get. No wasted points on guys doing nothing, maximum firepower and better survivability the MoN and no wasted points on I5 for back fielders. Plus other units can benefit situationally. if your going to buy half of the best AA unit you can get, swap one Las for an autocannon (same range) and man the quadgun. This assumes you dont have some stupid hellturkey air superiority already established.

My two anyway.

cod3x wrote:
3 guys and MoN on 8
or spend a few more points and get
vs ADL with Quad Gun

The ADL gives 5 guys an invulnerable save (Great vs high str weapons), and your sgt. mans the best AA you can get. No wasted points on guys doing nothing, maximum firepower and better survivability the MoN and no wasted points on I5 for back fielders. Plus other units can benefit situationally. if your going to buy half of the best AA unit you can get, swap one Las for an autocannon (same range) and man the quadgun. This assumes you dont have some stupid hellturkey air superiority already established.

My two anyway.

Don't confuse Cover saves with Invuln saves. There are a lot of things that ignore cover at range, specially in the Heavy slots of the new codexes. A Invuln save can not be ignored.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Jasper wrote:
If you are shelling out for MoN then isn't that your safety net rather than the extra models?

Mark of Nurgle doesn't protect Havocs. Havoc are long range guys, ergo, things firing back at them are long range. Nearly all long range weapons are also high strength weapons.

I don't really go to tournaments, though, and in my meta the only actual artillery I am likely to face is Whirlwinds and the like. If my meta had been filled with IG artillery spammers, then yeah, but... My meta has pretty much no Tau or Eldar, and little in the way of IG. I am most likely to face Tyranids, Orks, Grey Knights, Space Marines and Space Wolves. Perhaps I should have mentioned this, but I was not really asking about the mark anyway, just how many extra models to take. (Even if I don't mind a discussion about it.)

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Jasper wrote:
If you are shelling out for MoN then isn't that your safety net rather than the extra models?

Mark of Nurgle doesn't protect Havocs. Havoc are long range guys, ergo, things firing back at them are long range. Nearly all long range weapons are also high strength weapons.

That's the point I was making on my post and excepting using the word ergo (okay I used forgo) what I went on to say!