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Hey all! Just wanted to get some expert feedback on a 750 point competitive take all comers list. Will be using the Iyanden rules to allow you to take a Wraithlord as an HQ. This will give me some Anti-tank fire support and the ability to protect my backfield with the jetbike squads (which will also be used for objective grabbing). Serpents, avengers and warp spiders will be a little bit more aggressive with forward objective nabbing.

750 isn't all that big so I felt like using a wraithlord as an HQ would present some unique problems in terms of target saturation for my opponents.

Total: 747points

HQ 160 points
• Wraithlord
2x Brightlance
2x Flamers

Troops 492 points
• 3 man JB Squad
• 3 man JB Squad
• 5 Dire Avengers
& Wave Serpent w/ TL scatter lasers and shurican cannon
• 5 Dire Avengers
& Wave Serpent w/ TL scatter lasers and shurican cannon

Fast Attack 95 points
• 5 Warp Spiders

im pretty sure it just makes the wraithlord your warlord, not hq.

good list though otherwise.

You know and as I was just re-reading the rules I think you're right. That will surely put a damper on the list a bit.

750 for competitive you have 2 real options:

Maximize killing with loading up on Warp spiders with enough Lances to deal with that one random Land Raider

OR

Being impossible to kill with loaded Heavy Supports

Both Lists depending on play style:

Killy:
Total 747:
HQ 120
Farseer w/ jetbike and Singing Spear - 120

Troops: 102
2x3 Windrider jetbikes 2x51=102

FA - 285
8x Warp Spiders = 152
7x Warp Spiders = 133

HS - 240
Wraith Knight - 240

Total: 747

I would recommend this list, lots of threats that are very very hard to deal with, and also lots of mobility, contest objectives, etc.

Heavy on da' Heavys:

Farseer w/ bike+spear 120
2x3 Windrider Jetbikes w/ 1 cannon each 2 x 61 =122
Wraithknight, bare bones 240
2 x NightSpinner w/ holofields 2 x 130 = 260
Total 742

Only added the cannons and spear b/c had extra points that I didn't know what to do with...maybe give 1 spinner a Crystal Targeting matrix instead for a turbo boost torrent flame at str 7/8 on some encamped baddies. That hurts a lot for them.

Well, I'd go for a Serpent spam list with a cheap HQ, say Autarch with fusion gun. Serpents are very hard to destroy at this pt level.

qballony wrote:
750 for competitive you have 2 real options:

Maximize killing with loading up on Warp spiders with enough Lances to deal with that one random Land Raider

OR

Being impossible to kill with loaded Heavy Supports

Both Lists depending on play style:

Killy:
Total 747:
HQ 120
Farseer w/ jetbike and Singing Spear - 120

Troops: 102
2x3 Windrider jetbikes 2x51=102

FA - 285
8x Warp Spiders = 152
7x Warp Spiders = 133

HS - 240
Wraith Knight - 240

Total: 747

I would recommend this list, lots of threats that are very very hard to deal with, and also lots of mobility, contest objectives, etc.

Heavy on da' Heavys:

Farseer w/ bike+spear 120
2x3 Windrider Jetbikes w/ 1 cannon each 2 x 61 =122
Wraithknight, bare bones 240
2 x NightSpinner w/ holofields 2 x 130 = 260
Total 742

Only added the cannons and spear b/c had extra points that I didn't know what to do with...maybe give 1 spinner a Crystal Targeting matrix instead for a turbo boost torrent flame at str 7/8 on some encamped baddies. That hurts a lot for them.

What do you think of only two troops? Especially minimalist jetbike squads? They would be very susceptible to deep strike/drop pods. You would have to baby sit them and only using them for objective grabbing while clearing board space and threats with the few other units. Have you played this list before? I would be interested to see how it has played out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, I'd go for a Serpent spam list with a cheap HQ, say Autarch with fusion gun. Serpents are very hard to destroy at this pt level.

I agree. The fact that they are multi-purpose gunboats and troop transports makes them so valuable at this point range. I'm tinkering with two lists: I have a very bad ass forgeworld avatar that needs some board time and I've also found that avatars at lower point levels do a good job board denial and in conjunction with the wave serpents can really serve to funnel and trap enemies.


HQ
• Autarch w/ fusion gun and eldar jetbike

Troops
• 4 man JB squad w/ shurican cannon (autarch will ride here)
• 3 man JB squad w/ shurican cannon (harassing unit) - trying to get rear shots on av 10
• 5 man DA squad & wave serpent w/ TL scatter lasers, shurican cannon and holofields
• 5 man DA squad & wave serpent w/ TL scatter lasers, shurican cannon and holofields

Fast Attack
•5 man Warp Spider squad
---------------------------------------------
Total = 749 Points


HQ
• Avatar w/ fast shot

Troops
• 3 man JB squad w/ shurican cannon
• 3 man JB squad w/ shurican cannon
• 5 man DA squad & wave serpent w/ TL scatter lasers, shurican cannon and holofields
• 5 man DA squad & wave serpent w/ TL scatter lasers, shurican cannon and holofields
---------------------------------------------
Total = 747 Points

At 750, there are two lists I use, that I find to be quite competitive.

Autarch w/ Fusion Gun + Avenger Shuriken Catapault (85)

5 x DAs in WS w/ TL Scatters + HFs (200)
5 x DAs in WS w/ TL Scatters, Shuricannon + HFs (210)

6 x Warp Spiders (114)

Fire Prim w/ HFs (140)

Total: 749

------------

Farseer w/ Spirit Stone (115)

5 x DAs in WS w/ TL Scatters, Shuricannon + HFs (210)
10 x DAs + Exarch w/ PW + Shimmershield (160)

6 x Warp Spiders (114)

Fire Prism w/ Shuricannon + HFs (150)

Total: 749

-----------------

Just throwing some ideas out there, hope it helps!

ummm....at 750, you only need 2 troops. You start them in reserve, and just wreck stuff with your dakka. Pretty much nothing can handle all those threats at that low of point value.

 The Shadow wrote:
At 750, there are two lists I use, that I find to be quite competitive.

Autarch w/ Fusion Gun + Avenger Shuriken Catapault (85)

5 x DAs in WS w/ TL Scatters + HFs (200)
5 x DAs in WS w/ TL Scatters, Shuricannon + HFs (210)

6 x Warp Spiders (114)

Fire Prim w/ HFs (140)

Total: 749

------------

Farseer w/ Spirit Stone (115)

5 x DAs in WS w/ TL Scatters, Shuricannon + HFs (210)
10 x DAs + Exarch w/ PW + Shimmershield (160)

6 x Warp Spiders (114)

Fire Prism w/ Shuricannon + HFs (150)

Total: 749

-----------------

Just throwing some ideas out there, hope it helps!

Hey thanks for sharing the lists. May I ask what your general strategy is? I would probably play a little bit more conservative with the WS's if I only had two troops. I've always liked the safety net of a few JB squads that can harass and take objectives. How have your Prisms performed at this level?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

qballony wrote:
ummm....at 750, you only need 2 troops. You start them in reserve, and just wreck stuff with your dakka. Pretty much nothing can handle all those threats at that low of point value.

Fair enough lol

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, I'd go for a Serpent spam list with a cheap HQ, say Autarch with fusion gun. Serpents are very hard to destroy at this pt level.

Agreed,

3 5 man avenger squads in wave serpents with TL scat, shuriken, and holo
Autarch with fusion
Shadow weaver artillery platform

750pts and you can't get much more competitive then that. Even though 750 isn't really competitive but whatever

 Ravenous D wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, I'd go for a Serpent spam list with a cheap HQ, say Autarch with fusion gun. Serpents are very hard to destroy at this pt level.

Agreed,

3 5 man avenger squads in wave serpents with TL scat, shuriken, and holo
Autarch with fusion
Shadow weaver artillery platform

750pts and you can't get much more competitive then that. Even though 750 isn't really competitive but whatever

Haha, I agree with you, but our gaming crew is trying to pump out a few smaller games and then work our way up to 1500, 1750, 2000 point games.

Thanks a 3rd WS might be nice to add

I'll give you the best advice for eldar; just pack in as many wave serpents as you can and also try and get some reliable long range anti tank on tough platforms.

Spiders and hawks look good on paper but you'll learn painfully that they don't last. This edition is about shooting, serpents give you the ability to reach out and kill someone while having the speed to maintain board control.

End game look for this:
Autarch with Fusion gun
6 units of avengers in serpents with TL scat, shuriken, holo
2 wraithknights
Shadow weaver

1850pts

You might question the shadow weaver but it MVPs for me in most games, you target out heavy/special weapons, and gun for ethereals if they are around.

Also remember this is purely competitive, this sort of list isn't for playing against the goobs.

 Ravenous D wrote:
I'll give you the best advice for eldar; just pack in as many wave serpents as you can and also try and get some reliable long range anti tank on tough platforms.

Spiders and hawks look good on paper but you'll learn painfully that they don't last. This edition is about shooting, serpents give you the ability to reach out and kill someone while having the speed to maintain board control.

End game look for this:
Autarch with Fusion gun
6 units of avengers in serpents with TL scat, shuriken, holo
2 wraithknights
Shadow weaver

1850pts

You might question the shadow weaver but it MVPs for me in most games, you target out heavy/special weapons, and gun for ethereals if they are around.

Also remember this is purely competitive, this sort of list isn't for playing against the goobs.

Thanks this is helpful. I played more competitive matches in 5th edition but played in only a handful of 6th edition games (<1500 point games) and have found Warp Spiders to be a very useful unit (albeit fragile) in these smaller games where there is room to maneuver. Given your experience, I'm assuming they get targeted out pretty quickly in larger point value games.

The other caveat to the "competitive list" is that I don't want to be known as the guy around here that just throws WS cheese and no one wants to play with me anymore. But I appreciate the feedback regarding the shadow weavers. I have never used them before and will have to give them a shot to see how they perform.

Thanks for the feedback again!

Exactly, Ive used them in every way possible and people gun for them because their anti infantry weapons cant hurt the tanks or wraithknights. Its better to gun people down from a greater distance every turn.

I run a few lists, my wraithguard army is just dumb and for giggles, my "1st gen" list for friendlies (the competitive before tweaks) and my competitive list that runs purely on smashing the other guy with no remorse.

Ummm...ravenous...really?

Yes if you run only 1 squad of spiders they will be shot at first...If you leave them out in the open.

A few things...they are essentially highest priority threat for any army barring a 3xland raider list. They have what I would consider the best gun for point value, in addition to a ridiculous amount of maneuverability. To be honest: you will lose some, maybe even the squad, but if you're doing it right, you'll have either more than earned your points back, or wasted way more shooting by your opponent than necessary, so that your other threats advance and crush them.

There are only 2 real resources that you have to worry about in wh40k unit value and time. The thing is, even in 1500 points, a standard tourney game is 5 rounds. That means if someone spends 1 whole turn shooting something less than 300 points regardless of whether they kill it or not they allocated 1/5 of their time resource to destroying less than 1/5 of your value resource. This is where the concept of redundancy comes in. You should avoid taking only 1 of a linchpin unit. Linchpin unitswithout a work around to that uNIT's destruction = gg.

Ravenous is saying spiders are bad because everyone knows how good they are.......whaaaaaa????

This isn't super happy fun RPG everybody lives with rainbows time. This is not brighthammer 40k. Units will die. Plan for that. Position them so they are unkillable or at least statically unlikely to be killed. Know what your backup plans back up back up plan is. There are many great articles out there on the different threats, you need to be able to kill. Google that. Then go use warp spiders. Literally there are only 2 problems warp spiders can't fix: monoliths and land raiders. They are essentially the duct tape of Eldar. If you look at the feast of blades invitational winner, he was Eldar. Look at his list and interview.

Okay I'm done typing, but I can explain much easier talking about it. If you have any questions, pm me your Skype info.

this was my thoughts also. Spiders EVERY game get back thre points, and most of the time x2 points also.
they die, but bring down a 150+ point tank down with each squad to.

i agree with his perspective of serpents, but spiders ARE great, and not only good on paper.

qballony wrote:
Ummm...ravenous...really?

Yes if you run only 1 squad of spiders they will be shot at first...If you leave them out in the open.

A few things...they are essentially highest priority threat for any army barring a 3xland raider list. They have what I would consider the best gun for point value, in addition to a ridiculous amount of maneuverability. To be honest: you will lose some, maybe even the squad, but if you're doing it right, you'll have either more than earned your points back, or wasted way more shooting by your opponent than necessary, so that your other threats advance and crush them.

There are only 2 real resources that you have to worry about in wh40k unit value and time. The thing is, even in 1500 points, a standard tourney game is 5 rounds. That means if someone spends 1 whole turn shooting something less than 300 points regardless of whether they kill it or not they allocated 1/5 of their time resource to destroying less than 1/5 of your value resource. This is where the concept of redundancy comes in. You should avoid taking only 1 of a linchpin unit. Linchpin unitswithout a work around to that uNIT's destruction = gg.

Ravenous is saying spiders are bad because everyone knows how good they are.......whaaaaaa????

This isn't super happy fun RPG everybody lives with rainbows time. This is not brighthammer 40k. Units will die. Plan for that. Position them so they are unkillable or at least statically unlikely to be killed. Know what your backup plans back up back up plan is. There are many great articles out there on the different threats, you need to be able to kill. Google that. Then go use warp spiders. Literally there are only 2 problems warp spiders can't fix: monoliths and land raiders. They are essentially the duct tape of Eldar. If you look at the feast of blades invitational winner, he was Eldar. Look at his list and interview.

Okay I'm done typing, but I can explain much easier talking about it. If you have any questions, pm me your Skype info.

I have looked at the FOB list and found it quite interesting. I've had a lot of success with Warp Spiders so far right around the 1000/1250 point level where there is still enough room on the board to position and have enough additional threats on the table for them to be lowered on the priority list. I think they should really shine at the 750 point range but then again, maybe they just get targeted out real quick. My thought is that with 2 wave serpents, they might be free to do their thing.

Only 1 way to find out though. Appreciate all of the feedback and comments here. Valuable info all!

Condescending aside....

Play against good generals at 1850 on realistically terrianed tables and you'll see why I'm right.

Lol dude, I came in 2nd @ anime expo vs a lot of top tourney BAO guys with 2 squads and the feast of blades invitational winner rocked 2 squads at 1750.

Obviously you are right though and no actual good generals go to those events...-_-

 Ravenous D wrote:
Condescending aside....

Play against good generals at 1850 on realistically terrianed tables and you'll see why I'm right.

ya..... unless your laying tau those spiders pay back there points every game.

Ive played 2 5 man squads of spiders for the last few months, in over 6 tourneys, and a ton of games. At 2000 points, vs "good generals"

every time the exel.

maybe you just face to much tau with interceptor? or your useing them wrong....

I never said spiders were bad, I just said serpents were better mainly because of reach, and against smart people spiders aren't going to run rampant unless your playing on some mythical table of all LOS blocking terrain.

Plus the concept of "getting your points back" is outdated and a relic from 3rd ed when that actually mattered. Killing 400pts of marines with one unit doesn't prevent that surviving marine to claim the objective. I'd rather have a unit survive and capture objectives then just kill a few things and get wiped. They are an easy kill point, and a liability in scouring missions. They do tons of damage but they do not have staying power That is what I'm getting at.

qballony wrote:
Lol dude, I came in 2nd @ anime expo vs a lot of top tourney BAO guys with 2 squads and the feast of blades invitational winner rocked 2 squads at 1750.

Obviously you are right though and no actual good generals go to those events...-_-

Yes, anime expo....

As for feast of blades it was aggressive footdar, that's where the spiders would shine especially with wraithknights soaking up fire power. Personally I don't like the idea of depending on random powers to win games but apparently it worked for him. Its how his play style works for him.

Plus look at his opponents, Nids, daemons, daemons, eldar, taudar, eldar, tau. He had to have had perfect powers every game against the tau and eldar, because I don't know how they didn't take it apart, its not that fearsome of a list.

I'll be playing at Da Boyz GT next weekend, and SHOCK I have 2 units of warp spiders. I will glady let you guys know how it goes.

 Ravenous D wrote:
I never said spiders were bad, I just said serpents were better mainly because of reach, and against smart people spiders aren't going to run rampant unless your playing on some mythical table of all LOS blocking terrain.

Plus the concept of "getting your points back" is outdated and a relic from 3rd ed when that actually mattered. Killing 400pts of marines with one unit doesn't prevent that surviving marine to claim the objective. I'd rather have a unit survive and capture objectives then just kill a few things and get wiped. They are an easy kill point, and a liability in scouring missions. They do tons of damage but they do not have staying power That is what I'm getting at.

oh i didnt know you were saying that serpents were better. thought you were saying they were bad.
serpetns are much better than spiders, i agree.
BUT some opponentws will get angry when you take that many serpents, so warp spiders are a nice way to shake things up.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
I never said spiders were bad, I just said serpents were better mainly because of reach, and against smart people spiders aren't going to run rampant unless your playing on some mythical table of all LOS blocking terrain.

Plus the concept of "getting your points back" is outdated and a relic from 3rd ed when that actually mattered. Killing 400pts of marines with one unit doesn't prevent that surviving marine to claim the objective. I'd rather have a unit survive and capture objectives then just kill a few things and get wiped. They are an easy kill point, and a liability in scouring missions. They do tons of damage but they do not have staying power That is what I'm getting at.

oh i didnt know you were saying that serpents were better. thought you were saying they were bad.
serpetns are much better than spiders, i agree.
BUT some opponentws will get angry when you take that many serpents, so warp spiders are a nice way to shake things up.

That's where Q-balls got it wrong, I like spiders, its my favourite aspect, but from a view on pure effectiveness for tournaments its more efficient to just use serpents. 100% opponents will not be happy about it, but as tournaments go you bring the thing that beats face not nurses puppies.

My friendly "1st gen" 1850 list looks like this:
Spiritseer
5 D-scythe wraithguard in serpent with holo, shuriken, ghostwalk, vectored
5 dragons in falcon with holo, shuriken, scat
3 units of 5 avengers in serpents with TL scat, shuriken, holo
2 units of 5 spiders with exarch armed with spinnerette rifle, fast shot (kills 5 marines and armour 12 tanks in one go on average)
5 Hawks
Night spinner (tau hate these)
Shadow weaver.

My Tournament list is:
Autarch w/fusion
2 knights
x6 5 man avenger squads in serpents with TL scat (holo fields are pointless in tournaments dominated by tau and eldar)
Crimson hunter with exarch (surprisingly good if you knock out the quad gun turn1)

I see why its a freidnly list, its got a falcon in it.
also in freindly list would recoemnd giving hawks an extra guy do the blast becomes large blast.