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Hey guys,

I played BT back during 3rd ed, and haven't really played much 40k since. I'm looking at the new SM codex trying to figure out how to build a competitive list, probably under 1000 points right now. I have a few questions:

1. Is BT competitive against top tier armies? I like fluff but I'm not interested in putting together an army just for fluff/theme. I like to win.

2. Is the Emperor's Champion required? This may be a really outdated question, but back during Armageddon, you had to take the EC... But I don't see anything in this codex that indicates that he's mandatory.

3. Would you ever swap out your boltgun for a chainsword? Back during Armageddon I used to play a squad of Templars with cc weapons and pistols. I'm not really sure that would fy now though.

4. What's the difference between crusader squads and normal tactical squads? From what I'm reading on the forums, people aren't really taking neophytes, so one of the defining differences is a moot point now. Our sword brother is essentially a veteran sergeant, so that doesnt seem different.I know crusader squads can take LRCs as a dedicated transport, so there's one major difference. Also it seems that we can take heavy and special weapons in squads under 10 models - which may be a pretty big advantage over vanilla tac squads that require 10 guys. Other than that, are the any other major differences?

5. Is a mobile BT force viable in competitive play? When I played back in Armageddon, everything was mobile. Speed Freeks, Steel Legion etc all had a heavy emphasis on transports. The planet of Armageddon was supposed to be a flat wasteland, so the Armageddon armies were designed to cover a lot of ground very quickly. Typically BT would just pile into rhinos and LRCs and smash into the enemy in assault. Does a mobile BT force make any competitive sense currently? Would it be better if they were snooty units now? How would you be constructing your crusader squads if you were to put them in rhinos?

6. Are there any good current BT tactica articles? All the tactica articles that I'm seeing are based on the 4th ed codex. I know the 6th ed SM codex is really new so if there's nothing out there I wouldn't be surprised.

7. Does it make sense to buy models now, or wait and see if new BT models are released? I'm not asking about rumors, I'm just asking if we're due. Some of the BT models seem either old or outdated (finecast sword brethren squad for example) so I don't know if it would be best to pick up what's available now or wait and see if new models are on the horizon. I've waited 10+ years, I don't mind waiting another year. Too bad I don't still have my old models..

Thanks a ton for any help you can give to a newb like me!

1) No, frankly. Riptide spam rips BT Crusader hordes to pieces so easily it isn't even funny, Helldrakes would have a field day, and Eldar have pseudo-rending on their basic rapid fire weapons (and that is just scratching the surface there), to name just a few of the things that are hot right now.

2) No, he's not, and he's trash now.

3) Possibly a good idea, but mostly its circumstantial.

4) Crusader Squads get larger unit sizes and can take two specials (one of which can also be a SCCW) and a heavy+special at 5 man squad size. The smaller unit is probably the closest to 'competitive' you're going to get. Maybe if you had a way of giving a Crusader blob scout/infiltrate/outflank by say, taking an IC with the rule and attaching it to them they'd be fairly effective.

5) It pales in comparison to the mechanized forces of other chapter tactics/SM Codex's, and Rhino Rush is pretty much dead in the meta to begin with; never mind with CC configurations.

If you meant, uh, LRC spam then I honestly wouldn't be able to give you a reasonable opinion other than its a heck of a lot of points for some 'meh' firepower and almost-but-not-quite-guaranteed insurance your MEQ will reach enemy lines.

The other problem being that MEQ tend to suck without decent support (which you will have very little of with 200+ pt MEQ squads in 250 pt LR's) , unless you run a blob that tries to do AT, horde management and contribute AP2 to the butchery of Riptides simultaneously you'll end up with rock-paper-scissors match ups.

6) Implausible Nature has been slow for a while but the posts on it are generally pretty good:

http://www.implausiblenature.net/laeroths-blog.html

7) Probably not going to be any new models unless GW releases a supplement and completely breaks the trend that has stood up about 5 times now where no new models have been released. In those instances.

Here's the dilemma with the new Black Templars:

-compared to the old codex they have gotten better (arguably), they have access to a lot of gear they didn't use to have
-their chapter trait is decent and definitely keeps with the fluff
-your basic troop choice has access to CCWs and LRCs as dedicated transport

HOWEVER

-they're nowhere near competitive compared to other chapter traits like White Scars or Ultramarines
-their special characters essentially all suck b***s and don't really do much buffing to the rest of the army like Khan does to White Scars or Vulkan to Salamanders
-the close combat prowess of the basic space marine is still mediocre compared to CC-oriented armies even with the bp/ccw configuration... you're better off shooting.
-while having a special and heavy weapon in a 5-man squad makes sense point-wise, I have a hard time seeing the actual efficiency on the board, you either move and essentially lose a heavy shot or don't move and be out of range of a special shot... if we could do dual specials a la Space-Wolves it would be a different story... alas.

Overall, I'm hoping a supplement comes out to give us a bit of an edge, as it is I play my homebrew "BT successor" chapter mainly as IF, CF, or UM...

I hope this helps you make a decision.

Thanks for the feedback guys, that is truly... disappointing.

What is the upper-limit of competitiveness that BT has? Would you consider it a "second tier" army? If so, how would you build a nearly-competitive army list (winning against most except for the few lists that dominate every match)? LRC-spam?

-AB

Tough to say.

How accurate do you want to be to Back Templar fluff? How "competitive do your want to be? Do you want to win more than you loose or do you want to show up at a GT and win it all?

If your answers is fluffy and win more than you loose, then at 1000 pts something like this should do well.


I have not heard a lot about land raider crusader spam winning or loosing. I have heard some positives about drop pod crusader squad spam which benefit greatly from the 1 special, 1 combi, and 1 CC weapon on a model that cannot be challenged.

Also keep in mind if you have a nasty CC character he gets reroll to hit in challenges which can make him very nasty.