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Hi
A friend and I have had a problem with multiple template weapons since the 6thed came out, maby someone could help to resolve it.

Ill make the example as basic as possible and have attached a simple picture. The problem occurs when he shoots two flamers (which are both in the same squad) at a squad of my men consisting of say ten men. Flamer A hits five men with the template, flamer B hits five men with the temple, he then rolls all ten wounds at once and lets say they all wound and therefore die. That sounds simple enough, however two of my men were hit by both flamers (3 and 6 in the diagram) and theoretically died twice, whereas another two of my men (9 and 10 in the diagram) were not even hit by the flamers at all and I say shouldn’t have died. I tell him that to make things simple he should roll the wounds from flamers A and B separately so that the problem of the same man dieing twice and seeming like two separate kills doesnt come up, however this means that after flamer A kills five men flamer B can then only wound three which he dosnt think is right. He claims that in the 6thed wounds from templates like flamers are removed from the front as oppose to what is under the template and that because both weapons are in the same squad they fire simultaneously, therefore not only should he not have to roll flamers A and B seperatly but also the men who could not be reached by the flame weapons are liable to take flamer wounds.

It seems clear cut to me, but he claims that the rules support his argument and refuses to take on board what I say. The same problem gets exacerbated when he uses his thunderfire cannon which fires a small blast four separate times per turn which lands on the same two guys four times and somehow wounds eight, but due to its ‘barrage’ status I dont know how it should be fired and therefore don’t bother arguing.

Any advice much appreciated.

Rules questions go in YMDC

he is right on most points, except if you have no weapon in the group that can reach further back, you can't allocate wounds further back.

Basically you count how many hits you get from every weapon in the same unit before you go on to roll for wounds. So if you have 5 flamers in the same unit all managing to fully cover a unit of 5, then yeah, that means you'll get 25 hits on that unit of 5 people with your flamers.

It is also true that kills are removed from the front, just like any other shooting.

They added this weird rule in the FAQ saying that if a unit can't reach further back then the people outside of that reach can't die. However, the weird wording of it means if you have one bolter in the unit many will read it as the flamers then being able to kill as far back as the furthest weapon can reach.

One thing though. On your diagram it looks like #10 may not be visible at all depending on the terrain those square boxes represent. You can't allocate wounds to a model that is not visible, so that one would survive.

In the diagram you posted there would be 10 hits that, if no other weapons were fired, could be allocated to 8 models. If there was a marine C firing his bolter you could allocate any wounds (including the Flamer wounds) to all 10 models.

Also you need to not think of those models under the template as "dying". In you example those templates only generate a number of hits, those hits then have to wound. Those wounds are then allocated to that unit starting at the closest model and moving to the rear.

As was mentioned, you generated 10 hits, (assuming all wound) you would allocate those 10 wounds to the unit. Because #9 and #10 are out of range of the flamers, they cannot be allocated a wound.

it's also worth noting that your templates are not ocvering hte maximum number of possible models either as a little left and right on B and A respectivly would result in even more hits.

as has been stated its based on maximum range so your oponent is correct as long as he has a guy who could fire towards the furthest model.

as an example, a unit of 30 ork boys, I have a unit of 10 marines and 9 of them have flamers and 1 has a bolter.

the furthest model that can be hurt is 24" away.

now if my bolter wasn't there then the furthest back that they could go is literally as far as the template can go.

delete

Doesn't that bolter need to be fired to create the extra length? If not surely you can't take a weapon your not using's range into consideration at the time to hit rolls were made.

Q: When making a Shooting attack against a unit, can Wounds
from the Wound Pool be allocated to models that were not within
range any of the shooting models when To Hit rolls were made (i.e.
half the targeted model are in the shooting models’ range, and half
are not)? (p15)
A: No.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Few notes;
Models do not have ranges, though range is calculated per model basis.
Ranges are based on weapon, models can have more than 1 weapon, at different ranges. Units can be compromised with different weapons at different ranges.
BRB is kinda pants in this regard - for sure it doesn't actually mention to check the range based on the weapon your using specifically (duuuh awesome writing) only some blurb mentioning some Orkies being in 12 in range of their weapons.
IMO, FAQ is to stop unlimited range, while not making people create different wound pool for different ranges in a unit. Not to extend range based on just carrying a weapon. It transfers to the unit (except models which choose not to fire) through 'any model'

O - Denotes firing model
P - Denotes target models
- -Denotes 1Inch
Y - Denotes pistol
Z - Denotes salvo


O .................... P
Y ------------
Z ------------------------------------

BRB tells us;
#1 weapon must be in range to shoot.
#When checking range, measure from the firer to the nearest enemy model (Note, no mention of weapons in that sentence, but comes directly under weapon ranges).
#We then roll to hit.

So the firing model is 'O'. What is O's range is the question. Can I chose to fire Y at P? Because he was in the models range when I checked range. Or is the model's range based on the weapon they are firing? (Again, models don't have range, weapons do (I feel a song coming on here)).




Reason I bring this up is that at the time the FAQ came out and we had a 20 odd page thread the consensus seemed to be to me that the weapon with the longer range has to actually be fired to utilise its range. Since then however I see posts on the subject which do not clarify this, giving the impression I can haul a heavy venom cannon around and assuming I am just within 18 inch range of the target unit fire all Devourers and have them up to 36inches. Or do people still have different ideas

You still need to fire it (like I said) but it doesn't need to hit.

thats cleared things up abit, thanks