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There are three ways to run Sevrin Loth based on his three Psychic power tables. Telepathy allows a great deal of messing with the other player and his units (Puppet Master and Terrify), Telekinesis allows the once kinda-dead Farsight/Gate of Infinity trick to work again (with centurions), and the last, Biomancy allows him a great deal of face melting. Now, this isn't a debate about FW, I'm running Loth (and a Fire Raptor, for that matter) because I can.

I'm torn between using the Biomancy for a CC beast (At his best, he's better than any CM - S8 (AP2 Unwieldy) T7 FnP, IWND, 2++). However, since Grav-centurions are a thing now, being able to move them 24" a turn with no scatter and twin-linking via Farsight and a buff-mander sounds friend-losing-ly deliscious.

And then psych-out grenades.

Can't give you a sensible answer without more info on what else you're planning on running.

Loth seems pretty good, but he's best when he's there for a specific reason in the context of the rest of the army.

Loth will never be a a CC beat stick. At best he is a CC tarpit.

The real star of biomancy is endurance which gives relentless and FnP to a unit of your choosing. This is ridiculous on a IG blobb. Enfeeble is also

Telepathy is the most overall useful. I will just quote Jy2 here as I agree completely with him

 jy2 wrote:
If you're running Loth as a beatstick character, then you're doing it wrong. He's not a beatstick. What he is is a tarpit character, but you take him for his powers, not for his ability to bog down other characters in combat (and he doesn't even do that very well).

I love having Loth with Telepathy. Invisibility, Puppet Master, Terrify, Hallucination....all worth their weight in gold.

Finally telekinesis can be great in farsight type bombs (either an actual farsight bomb or just beacons and a unit of grav cents). However this is a limited build.

ansacs wrote:Loth will never be a a CC beat stick. At best he is a CC tarpit.

The real star of biomancy is endurance which gives relentless and FnP to a unit of your choosing. This is ridiculous on a IG blobb. Enfeeble is also

Telepathy is the most overall useful. I will just quote Jy2 here as I agree completely with him

 jy2 wrote:
If you're running Loth as a beatstick character, then you're doing it wrong. He's not a beatstick. What he is is a tarpit character, but you take him for his powers, not for his ability to bog down other characters in combat (and he doesn't even do that very well).

I love having Loth with Telepathy. Invisibility, Puppet Master, Terrify, Hallucination....all worth their weight in gold.

Finally telekinesis can be great in farsight type bombs (either an actual farsight bomb or just beacons and a unit of grav cents). However this is a limited build.

Thud wrote:Can't give you a sensible answer without more info on what else you're planning on running.

Loth seems pretty good, but he's best when he's there for a specific reason in the context of the rest of the army.

It depends on what my build for Loth is.
If Telekinesis -
-Loth
-Farsight
-4 Gravturions
-3x10 Tacticals in DP
-Fire Raptor
-9 FWs
-3 VT/EWO/HYMP Broadsides

If Biomancy (the weaker of the builds, at least until CC)
-Loth - Enfeeble/Endurance/Iron Arm
-CM with SE, TH, AA
-3x10 Tacticals in Pods w/ Apothecaries
-Fire Raptor
-Coteaz
-Xenos Inq w/ Rad
-Henchman: 5 Crusaders, 2 Priests
-Henchman: 3 Acolytes
-Land Raider crusader w/ MM and Psybolts
- ADL+QG

GoI allows me to get the Centurions where I want them on turn 1, potentially deleting a Riptide or Wraithknight on the very first turn. The Telekinesis list has better AA too. The Bio list exploits two things: priests for re-rolling saves in CC (whatup re-rollable 2++) and Psybolt ammo on Land Raiders. Basically, to get this list into CC you need to use the LRC to block LOS until you're ready to launch the assault. Against mobile armies like Tau or Eldar this could be a problem. However, everything in the CC squad has at worst a 4++ and FnP thanks to Endurance (except Coteaz).

The telekinesis seems better to me.

BTW allies cannot embark on each other's transports so I don't think I understand your biomancy build. The best use of the biomancy build I have figured out is in an IG blobb unit or possibly a grav command squad or MM dev squad.

 ansacs wrote:
The telekinesis seems better to me.

BTW allies cannot embark on each other's transports so I don't think I understand your biomancy build. The best use of the biomancy build I have figured out is in an IG blobb unit or possibly a grav command squad or MM dev squad.

Yeah, the telekinesis build is a bit better.

As for the Biomancy build, there won't be anyone actually inside the LRC. It's basically mobile cover. Interestingly, if a unit deepstrikes within 12" of the unit, and Prescience is up, the CM could potentially use his OB on that unit.

Lol, wouldn't recommend that due to the full scatter. Could be hilarious to wipe their own squad though.

I'd go Guard Blob with Inquisitor/Priests (BI), CenturionStar with Farsight/Commander (TK), or straight up Farsight Bomb with Commander (TK).

Either would be great. Loth is insanely powerful.

Telepathy is absolutely ridiculous.

If you have the chance to take Invisibility and Hallucination but choose not to... Well.

For example: Iron Arm on a Libby? Or Invisibility on Centurians in Ruins? Hm.

Well, Servrin is already in front tanking with his 2++.. And Centurions have a 2+ w/ 4+ cover already in Ruins. Endurance/Enfeeble with a super Blob OR Gate of Infinity/Telekine Dome with Centurion or Farsight Bomb are far more powerful.

 Brometheus wrote:
Telepathy is absolutely ridiculous.

If you have the chance to take Invisibility and Hallucination but choose not to... Well.

For example: Iron Arm on a Libby? Or Invisibility on Centurians in Ruins? Hm.

For me it's a pretty difficult choice. I'm more of a brute force person, I'll run lists that involve some sort of punching. Loth has the capacity to be one of the best beatsticks in the game. Despite only having two wounds, the fact he can be up to T7 with FNP and a 2++ is insane.

T7 doesn't actually mean anything because he will need a unit. This means he is T4 most of the time.

If you run around as a T7 W2 character you are just asking to be gunned down.

McNinja, you always raise good points.

I look at it like this-

1.) So he's toughness 4, but Hallucination failed to go off on that unit of 30 boyz? Well, at least they're far away.

2.) Oh, you really need to kill that Carnifex with Loth? You're still T4 if that Biomancy power fails. Oops.

These are probably bad examples, because you can deal with both situations in different ways.

To be honest, you've already stated that your playstyle is aggressive so I would expect Biomancy from you most of the time. As I've learned with Ahriman, versatility is key. Luckily we are able to generate before each game (as opposed to in our Army List (which would suck).

I just don't want you to get tunnel vision on Biomancy

 Brometheus wrote:
Telepathy is absolutely ridiculous.

If you have the chance to take Invisibility and Hallucination but choose not to... Well.

For example: Iron Arm on a Libby? Or Invisibility on Centurians in Ruins? Hm.

The kicker is he gets 3 warp charge and requires 1 per turn to get the 2++. If you go invis/hallucinate you only get the 1 power per turn. Hallucinate is almost always good, but he's still got to make his psychic test and get through DTW. 175pts is a lot for getting off 1 power a turn some of the time. I almost think biomancy suits his abilities better. Guaranteed endurance and enfeeble could be really nice.

Brometheus wrote:McNinja, you always raise good points.

I look at it like this-

1.) So he's toughness 4, but Hallucination failed to go off on that unit of 30 boyz? Well, at least they're far away.

2.) Oh, you really need to kill that Carnifex with Loth? You're still T4 if that Biomancy power fails. Oops.

These are probably bad examples, because you can deal with both situations in different ways.

To be honest, you've already stated that your playstyle is aggressive so I would expect Biomancy from you most of the time. As I've learned with Ahriman, versatility is key. Luckily we are able to generate before each game (as opposed to in our Army List (which would suck).

I just don't want you to get tunnel vision on Biomancy

Well, currently, a Carnifex would still wound Loth on a 2+, T7 or not. Challenges and who fights what is wholly dependant on what Loth gets off.

ansacs wrote:T7 doesn't actually mean anything because he will need a unit. This means he is T4 most of the time.

If you run around as a T7 W2 character you are just asking to be gunned down.

Well, he's running with a unit no matter what. If he runs with centurions and Farsight he's a bit better than all of the henchman.

Guaranteed enfeeble and endurance *is* nice.

 Brometheus wrote:
Guaranteed enfeeble and endurance *is* nice.

Enfeeble+Rad grenades= ID space marines with power swords.

Or better yet, Enfeeble + Rad Grenades + Guardsmen Sarge = ID paladins with power axes.

Corollax wrote:
Or better yet, Enfeeble + Rad Grenades + Guardsmen Sarge = ID paladins with power axes.

Or better yet, ID a riptide with a thunder hammer.

Aww, you win...

I don't see why you'd need to choose a single discipline. Since you can choose before the game, you can tailor against armies. Vs mech eldar? GOI for mobility. Vs Assault armies? Biomancy to beat them at their own game. Vs. Hordes? Both TK and TP work well.

Don't forget he has built in Counter-Attack as well.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 McNinja wrote:

Corollax wrote:
Or better yet, Enfeeble + Rad Grenades + Guardsmen Sarge = ID paladins with power axes.

Or better yet, ID a riptide with a thunder hammer.

Seems kind of excessive, you have a relatively good chance of just force-axing it to death. Psychotroke are so much better in every way.