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Sorry if this is in the wrong place, also sorry if the title isnt very good. Been playing the ESO Beta and its really early in the moring and I'm tired.

I was wondering something and after hours scouring the internet yesterday i came up empty handed. So i decided to join a website where i lurk all the time to find some people where i moved (done i think) and to get an answer, and hopefully stay as you all seem like a jolly good crew.

Anywho

The Emperor is revered as a god in the Imperium, But he punished a chapter of Space Marines for worshiping as such before the Heresy correct? So why is it that he is now a god. If he had a speech to text device (like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_2nM1GEllg) would he react in a manner similar to that.

Is there something i missed?

Thanks for your time in clearing this up for me, Everything else made sense and the search feature was failing me.

well, the high lords of terra operate in the shadows. they use the emperor as a symbol of the imperium, and therefor, immortality is a very good look. the less cyvilised of planets worship him as an absolute deity, while some worship him as a leader. im tired to, evebn tough it's 3:44 pm. lol.

The Emperor being so anti religious seems to be an invention of the Horus Heresy novels - in GW's Index Astartes, when he approached the Word Bearers, he did not censure them for building a faith, but simply for wasting time doing so, rather than being "out there" and conquering more planets. Indeed, I would say that if the Emperor had placed so much value on stamping out religion, he would have told his Space Marines so, which would've made the Word Bearers' choice of religion as a "gift" to the Emperor seem a rather odd choice.
Due to the way 40k treats its fluff, both stories are equally valid, but personally I think the studio material makes more sense as it circumvents this little problem (as well as the speed with which religion would later take hold of the supposedly rational Imperial populace).

Anyways, of course this still doesn't answer your question. I'll try to offer an explanation using the Ecclesiarchy fluff from the Codices:

To put it simply: The Emperor had no say in this. As the shrouded lord mentioned, a lot of the less civilised worlds started worshipping the Emperor as a god even before his duel with Horus, simply because of what he represented and the technology he and his forces used when visiting those worlds and annexing them for the Imperium. With no way to correctly tell advanced technology from magic or divine powers, the superstitious people quickly began regarding the Emperor as an omnipotent deity. The Emperor's "death" and interment in the Golden Throne then sent another ripple through the Imperium, and on many worlds countless unconnected cults sprang up, organised by and made up of people who simply could not believe that this vision of the great Imperium with the Emperor at its head would have been stopped dead in its tracks.

One of these many cults was the so-called Temple of The Saviour Emperor, founded by an Imperial Army officer who had served in the defence of the Imperial Palace on Terra. Since this cult had its powerbase at the very heart of the Imperium and the backing of the military, it had a huge advantage over the other sects and spread far more quickly, with it becoming commonplace that starship captains and regimental commanders would initiate their men in the Temple's rites. As its founder - known only by his adopted name of Fatidicus - died at the age of 120, the Temple already had a following of over a billion men and women on Terra, and countless more spread throughout the Segmentum Solar, and the cult quickly began fighting and - due to its superior strength - annihilating or absorbing other sects it came into contact with.

By the start of the 32nd Millennium, the Temple of the Saviour Emperor united almost two thirds of the Imperium's populace behind a common faith, and the only organisations left untouched was the Machine Cult of Mars and the Space Marines, who already had their own forms of adoration. As the High Lords, many of whom were already members of the Temple themselves (either wholeheartedly or at least paying lip-service), realised that this faith represented a binding force that would help overcome the fear of instability that followed the Horus Heresy, this faith was finally formalised as the official state religion of the Imperium of Man, named the Adeptus Ministorum, and only a few centuries later the Ecclesiarch gained a permanent seat on the Senatorum Imperialis, joining the ranks of the High Lords.

As for what the Emperor would think about this ... well, since the High Lords as well as the Ecclesiarch claim to interpret the Emperor's will, the Emperor is either fine with it (perhaps for the same reason that the activities of the Temple were condoned earlier: it provides stability and a binding force in troubled times), or he is incapable to act and does not think at all (be it because his attention is focused on the warp, or because he is actually dead and everything you've been told is a lie ).

The Emperor being anti-religious is only a recent invention. It was a clumsy attempt by GW/BL to contrast pre-Heresy and post-Heresy Imperium, by making pre-Heresy era appear more enlightened, but this was done in a ham-fisted way.

However it creates other inconsistencies. For example, the reason Mars joined in the first place was because of their doctrinal gymnastics that rationalized the Emperor as the Omnissiah and an incarnation of the Machine God. The Emperor never objected to this, and really really old WD articles even make reference to the Emperor blessing Titans.

As already mentioned above, the original rebuke to the Word Bearers as given in the 2nd edition Chaos Codex was for their monument building and spending time indoctrinating conquered populations instead of moving on quickly. There was nothing explicitly stated about the Emperor objecting to religious practices, just the time his Marines were wasting doing so instead of fulfilling their purpose of fighting.

IMO clinging to old fluff as the be all end all is foolhardy. The new fluff is much stronger and more thought out than anything from 1st or 2nd ed, and the rational for the emperor being "anti-religious" is similar to the actual enlightenment.

I wouldn't say it was clumsily done. They wanted the pre-heresy to represent a renaissance or enlightnment and the Emperor was to embody that era of enlightnment.

He was already being worshipped as a god in amongst the shadows and you even in an era of enlightnment there's always going to be the superstitious, especially when your armies are conquering new worlds left right and center and even though they try to stamp them out, each culture's beliefs still cling on.

Also remember that those in power always right the history books and have the most influence. As the primarchs disappeared one by one the high lords needed more and more control so increasingly religion has always been an effective method of control and keeping people in line.

There's scads of info on the ecclesiarchy and their rise to power. I mean really the Emperor can't defend himself and say No I'm Not a God even though I'm immortal and the the Astronomicon only works because I make it work, and an army of hundreds of thousands of demons attacked earth, but demons don't exist....

try telling that to the billions of people in the imperium who are already superstitious and see how good you are at changing their minds.

Or, it is possible that there is a deliberate moral to the bid'ah in the Heresy novels, which is that rationalism/Imperial Truth/structuralist ego failed to defeat chaos, and that devotion and the super ego are the best weapon, since even in Horus Rising it is only the Lectitio Divinatus and Euphrati Keeler that escape the daemon Samus.

cincydooley wrote:The new fluff is much stronger and more thought out than anything from 1st or 2nd ed [...]

I really can't agree there. Aside from 40k novels as a whole being notorious for contradicting each other, what's the rationale behind the Emperor supposedly being oh-so anti religious, yet apparently missing to actually mention this to his Legiones Astartes, only to have the Word Bearers think faith would be an awesome gift for Daddy E? If this was actually explained in the Horus Heresy, I'd like to know how.

If the novel fluff is considered "stronger", then only because it seems very popular amongst the fans, and because few people know or care that GW's own rulebooks continue to contradict them.

disdamn wrote:try telling that to the billions of people in the imperium who are already superstitious and see how good you are at changing their minds.

Cue the Life of Brian.

You mean besides the fact that blind faith causes all sorts of problems and flies In the face of logic or critical reasoning?

cincydooley wrote:You mean besides the fact that blind faith causes all sorts of problems and flies In the face of logic or critical reasoning?

Yes. If he wanted to stamp out religion, it stands to assume he would have told his Space Marines to do exactly that.

You don't find it odd that apparently nobody from the Word Bearers considered that the Emperor did not want to be worshipped if he was (allegedly) that adamant about it?

Lorgar: "Look what we did! Twenty systems, all thinking you're a god! Awesome, huh?"
Emperor: "Uh, actually .. I don't want that. Guess I forgot to tell you."
Lorgar: "*pouts*"

I hate the fact they made the emperor like that. When you think about it pretty offensive to a large portion of people for no real reason. I understand him not wanting people to view him as a god, but not the "i want to end all religion" part.

I choose to ignore all that stuff because there is no reason for it. Its just some author has put all his opinions in the book. To me its no different if the book was about the emperor exterminating the Canadians or Pacific Islanders. (as an example) under the excuse it will for some reason solve all the worlds problems.

Im not religious but i cant stand how horrible non religious people can be to religious people and thats why I didnt read the Horus heresy. In saying that though i dont look into 40k fluff much as it is a bit ridiculous anyways. I just take bits from here and there according to what i like.

And for those who think the imperium would be better without their terrible political policies you are pretty wrong. Technology doesnt make people better or somehow fix everything. I hear he just invaded planet after planet wiping out people who oppose him etc. Much like the british did, and having technology and trying to stamp out the natives beliefs and give them their idea of "a better life" didnt work and it never will work. Another reason i find the whole idea stupud.

But thats my opinion.

While it may be a hindsight invention, let me put this out there, as a very possible plot-hook (albeit one GW may not realize themselves).

It has been suggested again and again that the Chaos Gods united to usurp the Emperor at every turn. So much so that they convinced the Word Bearers that his refusal to accept Deity status is proof of his lack of said-status. But what if the Chaos Gods wanted to seed that corruption in the Imperium, to inevitably bring about its downfall?

It may not be odd so much as timely when the Word Bearers were chastized for their practices. Consequently, it's also oddly timely that Magnus was also castigated for his use of Psyker abilities, given to him by the Emperor's own latency.

What you have is a Great Conspiracy in the works undermining the Emperor's Will. When Horus falls to the Anathame and is facing the illusions of Erebus and Chaos, Erebus shows Horus a future where the Emperor is worshiped as a God. This shook him so bad that he ultimately rebelled to "save his Brothers." And what does he do? Succumbs to Chaos, blinded by ambition and pride, pushes on the Imperium so hard that it shakes them to Faith in the Corpse-Emperor, just as Erebus fore-told.

So, think about this. There is a 10,000 year long plot at work to destroy the Imperium. But this is meaningless because Time does not exist in the Warp. So understanding the enemy is First. But after that, suppose they succeeded? And they didn't want the Emperor dead just yet. They also want to humiliate the Primarchs for the hubris at believing they stood a chance against the weight of Chaos and so they are all claimed, living many of their Second's to take charge of usurping the material world, while the Gods hold onto their prizes.

This is hinted at in the Liber Malefact, in the Chaos Marines Codex, where it describes/fortells of a Traitor King (not God) returning to Terra to finish the Warmongers red work. Horus was never meant to win that fight. He was a tool. Through those dark works, the Emperor was laid to rest eternal on the Golden Throne. It has been suggested that his spirit remains intact, languishing beneath the stave of death.

And doesn't this kind of punishment sound like something say...I dunno, Nurgle would inflict on his enemy?

Eerily, if you study these works long enough and want to make sense out of them, you have to concede to the superiority of the Chaos Gods and their insanely complex plotting that sees itself to fruition every time, whether or not the material universe thinks it won or not.

Sometimes the Daemons come just to drive up a body count. Sometimes they take a planet. Sometimes they just take a gifted psyker child.

This is the way of Chaos, unknown even to the Dark Gods themselves, I suspect.

 Swastakowey wrote:
I hate the fact they made the emperor like that. When you think about it pretty offensive to a large portion of people for no real reason. I understand him not wanting people to view him as a god, but not the "i want to end all religion" part.

I choose to ignore all that stuff because there is no reason for it. Its just some author has put all his opinions in the book. To me its no different if the book was about the emperor exterminating the Canadians or Pacific Islanders. (as an example) under the excuse it will for some reason solve all the worlds problems.

Im not religious but i cant stand how horrible non religious people can be to religious people and thats why I didnt read the Horus heresy. In saying that though i dont look into 40k fluff much as it is a bit ridiculous anyways. I just take bits from here and there according to what i like.

And for those who think the imperium would be better without their terrible political policies you are pretty wrong. Technology doesnt make people better or somehow fix everything. I hear he just invaded planet after planet wiping out people who oppose him etc. Much like the british did, and having technology and trying to stamp out the natives beliefs and give them their idea of "a better life" didnt work and it never will work. Another reason i find the whole idea stupud.

But thats my opinion.

You seem to missing the point where religion leads to horrifying eldritch abominations that squash everything in their way in W40K.

As for some great conspiracy, no. The current environment of W40K is perfect for the Chaos Gods, as it's a state of perpetual suffering and war that simply breeds them more and more cultists. They want a stagnant war as it entertains them and allows for more fuel and champions to be extracted. I'm surprised GW hasn't directly stated that Chaos is the in-universe cause of the stagnant plot, as they stop anything from succeeding that would drastically alter it.

 Wyzilla wrote:
You seem to missing the point where religion leads to horrifying eldritch abominations that squash everything in their way in W40K.

I don't think that's it's religion religion itself that does that, it's the masses of energy given off by the emotions of mortals coalescing together in the warp that creates the eldritch horrors. Slaanesh, for example, was certainly not the product of a religion, but an excessive amount of mortals doing excessive things, which gave Slaanesh the energy to be born.

 Wyzilla wrote:


As for some great conspiracy, no. The current environment of W40K is perfect for the Chaos Gods, as it's a state of perpetual suffering and war that simply breeds them more and more cultists. They want a stagnant war as it entertains them and allows for more fuel and champions to be extracted. I'm surprised GW hasn't directly stated that Chaos is the in-universe cause of the stagnant plot, as they stop anything from succeeding that would drastically alter it.

You know there was that one guy they called "The Great Conspirator." >>

On the same note though, you're point makes no sense. The current environment is perfect for the Chaos Gods, but they didn't plan any of it that way? And they are not conspiring by conspiring to stop the conspiracies of man to be levied against them? lol

I know Chaos is the red-headed step-child of the WH40K universe, however we have the best potential for insane plot armor over all others. I always like to ask Loyalists, "Don't you think it would be more interesting if Chaos won and now man was fighting back for survival and to take what was stolen? How would that affect indoctrination? How would that affect the Chapters battle styles? How about this for a thought; In this universe where Chaos is finally allowed to succeed after 10,000+ of plotting, scheming, manipulating and gathering, what you have in mankind are organizations that pair with the "rare" space marine, perhaps working directly with squads of IG who are numerically superior at this point, to ridiculous levels like 1b. to 1. Imagine if worlds like Fenris reigned in their armies and was facing isolation/destruction for a few millenia? How would that change their perspective and tactics towards Chaos?

And how about another plot even farther than that, Man goes on another Reunification Crusade, led by no Emperor or Primarch, to take back the Universe from the Warp. How utterly amazing would that be? And Loyalists (and their writers) seem stuck on the scene of an Ultramarine at the top of a pile of bodies, laying down heavy bolter fire. lol It's so tired and boring! Let the good guys get beat a little bit, then make a truly heroic and meaningful comeback. One that understands the nature of Chaos for once and is actually capable of competing against it without the 10,000+ conspiracy handicap leeching Humanities talent.

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:


As for some great conspiracy, no. The current environment of W40K is perfect for the Chaos Gods, as it's a state of perpetual suffering and war that simply breeds them more and more cultists. They want a stagnant war as it entertains them and allows for more fuel and champions to be extracted. I'm surprised GW hasn't directly stated that Chaos is the in-universe cause of the stagnant plot, as they stop anything from succeeding that would drastically alter it.

You know there was that one guy they called "The Great Conspirator." >>

On the same note though, you're point makes no sense. The current environment is perfect for the Chaos Gods, but they didn't plan any of it that way? And they are not conspiring by conspiring to stop the conspiracies of man to be levied against them? lol

I know Chaos is the red-headed step-child of the WH40K universe, however we have the best potential for insane plot armor over all others. I always like to ask Loyalists, "Don't you think it would be more interesting if Chaos won and now man was fighting back for survival and to take what was stolen? How would that affect indoctrination? How would that affect the Chapters battle styles? How about this for a thought; In this universe where Chaos is finally allowed to succeed after 10,000+ of plotting, scheming, manipulating and gathering, what you have in mankind are organizations that pair with the "rare" space marine, perhaps working directly with squads of IG who are numerically superior at this point, to ridiculous levels like 1b. to 1. Imagine if worlds like Fenris reigned in their armies and was facing isolation/destruction for a few millenia? How would that change their perspective and tactics towards Chaos?

And how about another plot even farther than that, Man goes on another Reunification Crusade, led by no Emperor or Primarch, to take back the Universe from the Warp. How utterly amazing would that be? And Loyalists (and their writers) seem stuck on the scene of an Ultramarine at the top of a pile of bodies, laying down heavy bolter fire. lol It's so tired and boring! Let the good guys get beat a little bit, then make a truly heroic and meaningful comeback. One that understands the nature of Chaos for once and is actually capable of competing against it without the 10,000+ conspiracy handicap leeching Humanities talent.

No, the point that Chaos wouldn't care about humiliating the Primarchs, killing the God Emperor, or destroying the Imperium- it's beneath them and doesn't play to their interest. Their goals are much more clearly eternal stalemate. They did indeed plot, but not over petty things like humiliating the primarchs or killing their creator- they get nothing out of it. Sustaining the war provides more entertainment. It's unlikely they would ever want it to end- for it would not only likely weaken them, but also kill the entertainment.

 Troike wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
You seem to missing the point where religion leads to horrifying eldritch abominations that squash everything in their way in W40K.

I don't think that's it's religion religion itself that does that, it's the masses of energy given off by the emotions of mortals coalescing together in the warp that creates the eldritch horrors. Slaanesh, for example, was certainly not the product of a religion, but an excessive amount of mortals doing excessive things, which gave Slaanesh the energy to be born.

The Chaos Gods represent the four main things that are typically worshiped by humans in a religion. Khorne and Nurgle make the most sense, considering that while they feed on such emotions, religions with deities or ideals similar to those made by humans would receive power from them.

But religion isn't the cause in that secenario, just a (possible, depending on the religion) enabler. There would still be war and rage without religion, and hope, and death and decay. And again, Slaanesh was not the product of a religion, just emotional energy.

In fact, religion seems to be a potent tool that can be used against Chaos. The Imperial Creed often opposes Chaos, and it is adherents to the Imperial creed who are often quite good at resisting and stamping out Chaotic influence.

Uuuuuuh. huh? You're still not making any sense. If the Chaos Gods were so apathetic, why would they have taken the Primarchs in the first place? Why would they gift the Emperor with a sense of the Warp? Why would they have turned Horus to Chaos? Why would they have Chaos Space Marines and Cultists in the first place?

Truth be told, the Chaos Gods actually ARE interested in mortal affairs, as far as converting real space into warp space is concerned. Past that, no, they're not going to give Typhus a Christmas present for being such a great bro. That is the extent of their caring for mortal affairs and Tzeentch is actually the most concerned with such things, as he is, say it with me, the Great Conspirator.

It doesn't stop there either. In fact, the convolution of the Warp becomes even more fickle when you realize that if the Great Game were to ever end, which it never will, the Chaos Gods themselves would DIE. That's why Nurgle can never have his ultimate plague, and Khorne will never kill his brothers outright, and why Tzeentch will never complete his Conspiracy, or why Slaanesh will never completely dominate the other three. It's impossible because such a thing would kill the roils of the Warp and all in it, including the victor.

This is why they like people. When reaching back through the warp into the conscious minds that gave them life in the first place, they give themselves the opportunity to spread their influence in Real Space. This is because the true, unified objective that all 4 Gods actually share (which is why I don't think they're actually as all powerful as they themselves think they are, and are actually slaves to the Warp itself) is to breach Real Space forever.

This doesn't mean the fighting stops. In fact, it's quiet the contrary. The fighting expands!

So, where ever you're getting that information from, Wyzilla, I'd faq chk.


That said, I'd like to clarify a few more things.

Why would the Chaos Gods want to humiliate the Primarchs? Because they want to humiliate the Emperor himself who dared to spit in their eyes. Considering the Emperor is convulsing as a withered husk on the Golden Throne, I'd say mission accomplished. Same goes for the Primarchs who are all but dead.

Why would the Chaos Gods want to destroy the Imperium? Well interestingly enough, they don't. They need those slaves to feed them emotions. That said, the Chaos Space Marines on the other hand, are the ones that want the Imperium destroyed. And wouldn't you know it, they're being played by the gods, same as the Primarchs and the Emperor are, as are all mortal things in the realm of Real Space.

It's not Eternal Stalemate: It's Endless War. The sides shift and while no one is the undisputed winner or loser in the Great Game, it does still generate a considerable ebb and flow of things both Warp and Real. I know this sounds like splitting hairs, but it's not because in an endless stalemate, the Ruinous Powers would all be evenly matched. They are not. There is a balance that gets shifted between the four, one that I'll bet not even they recognize fully as a mechanism to keeping the Warp moving.

I've really gotta get my Chronicles of Chaos post together to flesh out some of these killer plot hooks I've been potentially finding. And think about it, doesn't this sound like a better Chaos anyways? A Chaos that is Chaotic unto itself? Rather than this apathetic collective that just happens to infiltrate Real Space from time to time?

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:
Uuuuuuh. huh? You're still not making any sense. If the Chaos Gods were so apathetic, why would they have taken the Primarchs in the first place? Why would they gift the Emperor with a sense of the Warp? Why would they have turned Horus to Chaos? Why would they have Chaos Space Marines and Cultists in the first place?

Truth be told, the Chaos Gods actually ARE interested in mortal affairs, as far as converting real space into warp space is concerned. Past that, no, they're not going to give Typhus a Christmas present for being such a great bro. That is the extent of their caring for mortal affairs and Tzeentch is actually the most concerned with such things, as he is, say it with me, the Great Conspirator.

It doesn't stop there either. In fact, the convolution of the Warp becomes even more fickle when you realize that if the Great Game were to ever end, which it never will, the Chaos Gods themselves would DIE. That's why Nurgle can never have his ultimate plague, and Khorne will never kill his brothers outright, and why Tzeentch will never complete his Conspiracy, or why Slaanesh will never completely dominate the other three. It's impossible because such a thing would kill the roils of the Warp and all in it, including the victor.

This is why they like people. When reaching back through the warp into the conscious minds that gave them life in the first place, they give themselves the opportunity to spread their influence in Real Space. This is because the true, unified objective that all 4 Gods actually share (which is why I don't think they're actually as all powerful as they themselves think they are, and are actually slaves to the Warp itself) is to breach Real Space forever.

This doesn't mean the fighting stops. In fact, it's quiet the contrary. The fighting expands!

So, where ever you're getting that information from, Wyzilla, I'd faq chk.


That said, I'd like to clarify a few more things.

Why would the Chaos Gods want to humiliate the Primarchs? Because they want to humiliate the Emperor himself who dared to spit in their eyes. Considering the Emperor is convulsing as a withered husk on the Golden Throne, I'd say mission accomplished. Same goes for the Primarchs who are all but dead.

Why would the Chaos Gods want to destroy the Imperium? Well interestingly enough, they don't. They need those slaves to feed them emotions. That said, the Chaos Space Marines on the other hand, are the ones that want the Imperium destroyed. And wouldn't you know it, they're being played by the gods, same as the Primarchs and the Emperor are, as are all mortal things in the realm of Real Space.

It's not Eternal Stalemate: It's Endless War. The sides shift and while no one is the undisputed winner or loser in the Great Game, it does still generate a considerable ebb and flow of things both Warp and Real. I know this sounds like splitting hairs, but it's not because in an endless stalemate, the Ruinous Powers would all be evenly matched. They are not. There is a balance that gets shifted between the four, one that I'll bet not even they recognize fully as a mechanism to keeping the Warp moving.

I've really gotta get my Chronicles of Chaos post together to flesh out some of these killer plot hooks I've been potentially finding. And think about it, doesn't this sound like a better Chaos anyways? A Chaos that is Chaotic unto itself? Rather than this apathetic collective that just happens to infiltrate Real Space from time to time?

I am with Wyzilla in this one.

The Chaos Gods do not care about mortal affairs. They are gods, they lack anything in common with humanity. Humans are like ants, or grass, to them. That´s what the background says. Humans delude themselves thinking that the gods care about them, but they do not. Praying to the Chaos Gods is mostly a futile act, like praying to the Emperor. It usually doesn´t work, and if it does it is because a Daemon, and not a god, heard the pray. The gods are busy with the Great Game and care nothing about everything else.

There are incredible rare exceptions though, with the Heresy being the biggest ever. That was the only time they really cared about something happening in the real world. And this was because something, the Emperor, was trying to destroy them. And his plan was working.

I think you are right in the Chaos Gods being quite happy with the Endless War. A victory would actually hurt them, because they feed on conflict. The Chaos Space Marines are the ones who want to defeat the Imperium.

One little thing: the Chaos Gods are described as locations inside the Warp. They are the Warp itself. Think of them as barely conscious dinamic landscapes inside a dream. This is the reason why they cannot "exit" the Warp. I don´t know where you get the idea that they want to do so. Also... "they gave the Emperor a sense of the Warp"? I am curious... source?

For your last question: I would rather take an "apathetic collective" of entities made of raw emotion, unknowable by any mean except through dreams and legends, than a force ultimately motivated by human needs. Humiliate a mortal being? Why? They existed before the creation of time. They do not care.

 da001 wrote:

The Chaos Gods do not care about mortal affairs. They are gods, they lack anything in common with humanity. Humans are like ants, or grass, to them. That´s what the background says. Humans delude themselves thinking that the gods care about them, but they do not. Praying to the Chaos Gods is mostly a futile act, like praying to the Emperor. It usually doesn´t work, and if it does it is because a Daemon, and not a god, heard the pray. The gods are busy with the Great Game and care nothing about everything else.

But Chaos gods do care, because they ultimately feed off humanity. If humanity were gone, they would weaken and even starve. When Champions are created, that is the god taking an interest, however fleeting, in that particular individual enough to mark them supernaturally as their own. Similarly for whenever a Champion ascends to Daemon Prince.

Individual humans and even Champions may be have little value, but little is not the same as zero.

Iracundus wrote:

 da001 wrote:

The Chaos Gods do not care about mortal affairs. They are gods, they lack anything in common with humanity. Humans are like ants, or grass, to them. That´s what the background says. Humans delude themselves thinking that the gods care about them, but they do not. Praying to the Chaos Gods is mostly a futile act, like praying to the Emperor. It usually doesn´t work, and if it does it is because a Daemon, and not a god, heard the pray. The gods are busy with the Great Game and care nothing about everything else.

But Chaos gods do care, because they ultimately feed off humanity. If humanity were gone, they would weaken and even starve. When Champions are created, that is the god taking an interest, however fleeting, in that particular individual enough to mark them supernaturally as their own. Similarly for whenever a Champion ascends to Daemon Prince.

Individual humans and even Champions may be have little value, but little is not the same as zero.

Near zero then.

The closest thing I can think of is a cow eating grass. The Chaos Gods are utterly inhuman, and even lack a sense of causality, with present, past and future being the same to them. Their consciousness, if they have something close to what humans call consciousness, would be unable to empathize with us. Another example: a human eating pistachios. Do you care about them? Well, if you run out of pistachios, you may ask yourself what is going on, and do something about it, but that´s all.

The Chaos Gods are entities made of emotions. When a Champion do something that causes him to get closer to a god, the raw power can turn him into a Daemon... or into a spawn. It is not a focused power. It has no purpose. The gods do not care about him as an individual.

Daemons, on the other side, are agents of the gods, with consciousness, intelligence and purpose. It is them who run the show in the real world in the name of the gods.

The selection of a Champion in the first place is still the god caring enough to invest the person with some measure of its supernatural power. Why one particular mass murderer gets to be a Champion of Khorne and not just one more serial killer? Why this self absorbed decadent noble can become a Champion of Slaanesh while another can strive for decadence in another field and get nothing?

Whether it be passing whim or genuine interest, there is still some element of choice undertaken by the god. They are warp storms but they are not infinite. The smashing of the Emperor's wards around the Primarchs for example was originally described as taking an enormous amount of energy, even for the gods. Investing a human with supernatural power is still expenditure, again however small. It may be less than the expenditure of buying a coffee but still one chooses to buy the coffee.

Similarly, the decision to raise someone from mortal to immortal warp creature requires expenditure of power. The Chaos gods may not understand or care that investing a mortal with more power can result in creating spawn, but again they have to decide expend the power in the first place. In the Realms of Chaos, it describes how daemons are created as offshoots of their god and are vulnerable to being reclaimed and dissolved by their god. Elevating a mortal to Daemon Prince is creating a new daemon. Slaanesh is also described as fashioning the Keepers of Secrets in various forms depending on his mood at the time. Again all this equates to at least a fleeting interest.

The original Realms of Chaos books and the 2nd edition Chaos Codex describes the Chaos gods wagering over battles, champions, and the fates of daemon worlds in the Eye of Terror. Again the value may be like small change to rich billionaires but it is still gain or loss for them, and their interest as described in those books seemed to be more interest in the game and the process.

Ok! Got my books back so I can start citing again. Also da001, we've been on these subjects for quiet some time and usually on the same side, so I think you may have misunderstood me at first and once I clarify, we'll probably align once more. Or at least agree to the point that these extrapolations, while perhaps a stretch because of how little BL cares for an interesting Chaos image, are at least viable and sense-able, if at least thought provoking. Also, I'm sending you a friend request on that point. XD


As I said, the Chaos Gods interest, while fleeting, do still exist as a neccessity for their survival. Because if they do not have the emotions of man, or worse yet one of them were to dominate the other three, they would all die and the Warp would be still. This is even the case with Xeno's races when you consider that, while the Eldar are nigh-dead and the Orks are so incredibly dense they're more likely to manifest Gork and Mork in stronger ways that would defeat the Ruinous Four, should the creatively rich minds of human or human-like races provide. They like humans as slaves, even if they have to empower them a little bit from time to time, just to make them realize later how folly their choice ultimately was. It's like being in a really abusive relationship, where one side is the greediest thing imaginable and just leaching off of the essence of the other, while making the other think it's necessary or beneficial for them.

Talking about a Victory, they can afford for the Imperium to be defeated by the Chaos Space Marines because that doesn't exterminate humanity. It enslaves humanity. It also finalizes the enslavement of the Space Marines as well. And the "defeat of the Imperium" really only means the Fall of Terra and the end of the Astronomicon and the Emperor, not really the end of Humanity as a whole as there are vast other worlds out there, protected or in hiding. In a lot of ways,the Emperor being deaded for good could help them out in a lot of ways, even when considering scraping him for parts. lol

About your "One Little Thing" (as I said before, we've been on the same side a lot in the past. lol) I entirely agree with you. Remember when this point came up in "Is Chaos as Evil as you Thought it was?" And it came down to "Can Landscapes be Evil?" Or more importantly, "How sentient are the Gods really?" On a quick aside before continuing, because they are so bound to the Warp and because they want to expand the Warp as much as possible, that also expands their sphere of influence and allows them to affect real change. It's how they move, while still being relatively immovable.

It seems to be that they are enslaved to their own energies, or the Warp specifically, and wouldn't it be a kick to find out that they (all four) were being passively driven to benefit a greater force or "Chaos God" (let's call it this Chaos God, The Warp)? Like puppets on strings who pretend to enact their own means and desires, only to be pulled into complete slavery and line with the ultimate desires of the Warp when necessary?

You hit the nail on the head perfectly when you explained why they took an interest in the Emperor. He threatened them. And they are Gods, so to them this is the height of arrogance and hubris. Like I said before, doesn't it sound like the ultimate punishment for such a graven slight would be tormented physical and spiritual undead status on the Golden Throne, only to be torn out by the Son of your Dead and Fallen Favoured Son and finally swallowed whole by the Warp (the Chaos God, not the Four)?

It is a Conspiracy 10,000+ years in the making, and a massive expression of interest, albeit selfish and self-directed interest that completely abuses and misuses humanity, the Space Marines, the Primarchs, and the Emperor himself. Why? Because they are a new rich source of power in the Warp, the way the Eldar were before most of their race was wiped out and became "less efficient."

Where do I get my source for them gifting the Emperor? In Erebus' visions to Horus, when he sets the stage for the Emperor's deification 10,000 years later. He alludes, briefly, to the fact that the Chaos Gods gifted the Emperor all of his genetic brilliance and prescience and blah-blah-blah, which is why he is such an oddity and stands entirely alone (because he gained a measure of the Warp and understanding of the powers he wielded in a way that mimiced the Chaos Gods, without enslaving him the same way as the Chaos Gods, in that they are completely bound landscapes to the Warp [God]). He attempts to spread this gift with science and such, which is the establishment of the Primarchs, which the Chaos Gods take from him and ruin his ambitions by seeding the Heresy. So the Emperor continues forward and creates the Space Marines and attempts to recollect and salvage this plan, which Chaos rears it's head at.

These are the actions of a force the likes of which we have not seen or can comprehend at this time, mostly because we haven't seen it. lol

Here is a great reason final reason as to why they would humiliate humanity the way that they have so far: Because it's fun. +__+

So here are some quotes I'll leave this text wall at. Taken mostly from the Chaos Space Marines and Daemons Codex.

As you saw, and others may not have da001, The Liber Malefact:

"Thirteen times shall the Traitor King go forth, in the End Times the iron fortress shall be cast down, Its walls breached and its Gate forced open, Those that dwell beyond shall spill through it.

The air shall burn and the ground shall melt. The Daemon shall lie down with the Machine. Brother shall slay Brother with fire and sword, and the sky wound shall pour it's malice forth.

The Eye shall stare Unblinking at it's Prize and the Traitor King shall cross the bridge of stars. He shall return to finish the Warmongers red work. Upon holy soil shall the fate of Man be decided."

From the Chaos Space Marines Codex pg 26

"In this unknowable realm, titanic hosts clash, locked together in a conflict that is as old as the universe and can never be won."

pg 6 Codex, Daemons.

"As the races of the galaxy prospered and grew, so too did their hopes and dreams, their rage and wars, their love and hatred. This burgeoning flood of raw emotion fed the Chaos Gods and nurtured their power. Eventually the gods reached back into and through the ereams of mortals, eternally working to influence the physical realm and it's myriad races."

Pg 6 Chaos Daemons

"A Chaos God can only grow in power through the actions and thoughts of mortals. Those who worship a Chaos God, and beahve in a way that feeds it, are rewarded with strange gifts, extraordinary powers and, potentially, immortality...
...though the twisted plans of the Chaos Gods are such that often victory is not necessary; merely the acts of sacrifice and battle themselves. When devotees of Chaos die, their souls do not fade in the Warp and disapper like the spirits of others. Instead, their immortal energy is swalled into the greatness of their gods, their souls sustained forever, bound to the eternal power of Chaos."

pg 6 Chaos Daemons Codex

"Though realm and god are one, the Chaos Gods each have a form that embodies their personalities and dwells at the heart of their territories."

pg 6 Chaos Daemons Codex

"The Chaos Gods are not alone in Warp Space." taken slightly out of context, pg 7 Daemons Codex.

"Despite their myriad differences, the great Gods of Chaos hav the same goal: total domination of the universe." pg 8 Daemons Codex

"For long periods, one god may dominate the others, fed by its own success, leeching its foes' energy for its own growth. Ultimately, the other gods will ally against the dominant force and through combined efforts reduce him in power, until another of their numbers rises to prominence. This pattern is played out again and again through eternity. No Chaos God can ever truly be victorious, for without the Great Game, the Warp would become a still, unmoving emptiness."

pg 8, Daemons Codex

Last three paragraphs and then I'm done quoting for a bit because I think there is enough up there already and hopefully I covered all my bases.

The Kicker:

"From time to time there arises a being, place, object or event in the material universe that attracts the attention of all the Gods of Chaos. So important is this new element, so desired or so dangerous, that all rivalry is temporarily put aside in order for Chaos to take advantage of this particular opportunity, or thwart the threat it presents. Then the four work as one for a while, and the galaxy trembles before their combined might.

For Manking, the most significant occasion of this type was the rise of the Emperor. During this period, the Chaos Gods tried with all their might to bring about the Master of Mankind's downfall, culminating in their corruption of the Primarchs and the wars of the Horus Heresy...

Such interest in mortal affairs is fleeting, and treaties between the gods do not last long. As soon as their objective is achieved, the Gods begin to resume their Great Game."

pg 8 Daemons Codex.

Oh and finally about driving Chaos into reality forever and all that jazz, the Crimson Path on pg 20 of the Chaos Space Marines Codex. Not going to quote that one.

Hope this helps clarify my position thus far a little better.

@TheRedWingArmada
That was quite convincing. I see your point now and we actually share the same opinion on most things concerning Chaos.

Two things though:
1) I always assumed the prophecy of the Liber Malefact ("Those that dwell beyond shall spill through it") referred to Daemons, due to the "the god and realm are one" thing. If Chaos Gods are actually part of the Warp itself, moving to the real world (if they are able to) would mean merging both dimensions. Interesting thought. Coming to think of it, warpstorms are referred as part of the Chaos Gods in the old fluff.
2) I remember what Erebus said to Horus, though he is not really a reliable source. The problem here is what the Emperor actually is. I have always had this pet theory that he is either a Chaos God equivalent or something slowly becoming a Chaos God of sorts. Mostly since I read "Eye of Terror", an old novel by Barrington J. Bayley, that depicts the Daemons talking about the Emperor as if he was one of them.

@Iracundus
Same here. "Whether it be passing whim or genuine interest, there is still some element of choice undertaken by the god. " We are all saying the same, only the wording and perhaps a little difference in the interpretation of the same words are different.

 da001 wrote:
I have always had this pet theory that he is either a Chaos God equivalent or something slowly becoming a Chaos God of sorts.

It's a fun theory, and not without merit. As we've seen, lots of mortals thinking/doing something can have an pronouned effect in the warp. The Imperial Creed has millions upon millions of adherents, and no shortage of fanatical zealots devoted to it. All of this belief could well be having some effect upon Big E himself. On a related note, it's easy to look at Celestine or The Sanguinor as "Daemons of the Emperor", beings that he has empowered to aid his forces and his Imperium. He could well be on his way to godhood, he certainly has the fanbase for it, perhaps enough to make it happen in the warp.

Though, of course, this is complete conjecture. The Imperial Creed might not be particularly affecting the Emperor at all, and Celestine and The Sanguinor could well be getting their power from the sheer output of emotional/psychic energy being generated by their respective forces. But still, it's fun to theorise.

The Emperor could very well be a Warp God of a different nature, or perhaps that Supreme Warp God I mentioned before, that I simply referred to as The Warp, however in some cast down form. Or perhaps, in keeping with the theme of the Warp being reflections of mortal emotions and such, he could represent the pure spirit of Defiance and casts this down into his followers like Celestine (liken to Fateweaver) or The Sanguinor (liken to Skulltaker).

I rever to my previous point about the Emperor taking some crazy gambit that hasn't been revealed yet with the Chaos Gods, and the Four of them Ganking him for his hubris. This means that not only are they playing the long game (10,000+ years) in humiliating him and his creations, but he is as well, accepts the inevitable fall of himself and his resigned fate to the Golden Throne, only to ultimately achieve something the Big 4 thought, not possible, a divine godhood over the forces of Chaos and winning this game of chess from his fugue and crippled state.

The ironic thing here is, if that's true, and the Emperor were to win, he would still the Warp, and his own source of power. Unless we cheat somehow in his human/mortal study and he becomes the source of power for the Warp like he currently does for the Imperium through the Astronomicon. Such an ascension would be truly miraculous, rob him of all mortality and ego, and essentially he would become a new, perhaps more benevolent source of strength in the universe.

Something like that.

And on point 1, go back to the Crimson Path (which was out of place in that quote storm actually). Yes, drawing daemons, but also the range of the Eye of Terror and all that exists within. O__O

I agree with RedWing, the Chaos Gods play the long game and so does the Emperor.

There's lots of info sprinkled about the HH novels and the BL novels that the Emperor has an extreme forsight that possibly rivals the chaos gods. He's known to have bargained with them for the souls of the primarchs and had somehow figured out a method of bottling warp power into flesh while preventing the corruptiing influence of the warp. Only thing that stopped him was the chaos god's own mettling which got mortals into the Emperors primarch incubator to free the warp to touch the primarch fetuses.

He also seemed to defeat a C'tan (perceived as battling and defeating a dragon) and then somehow imprison it in Mars, which lead to the rise of the martian machine god cult during the dark ages, which the Emperor was able to capitalize on thousands of years later to be designated as Omnissiah by the martian priests, leading to the technology needed to recapture human planets.

Also in one of the HH novels there's a moment where he's psychically connected with a human and they play a game of regicide which obviously is about the coming war on Earth and the Emperor knowing that Horus will come and that he'll have to sacrifice himself for the greater victory.

Seeing as the man can clearly plan thousands and thousands of years ahead of time (ie. the Omnissiah play) he had to know the HH was coming and as much as he hated it (they were his sons after all) I have to think he would do anything and everything to manufacture the best result for mankind.

There's lots of good theories about the End Game for 40K universe, but I believe the Emperor is playing another long game that will ultimately see the return of the lost primarchs and Roboute who will promptly start a civil war amongst the Imperium to purge it of the crazy lunancy that's taken it over while they find a way to wake the Emperor which will somehow tie in the Emperor's biological children and the inner circle of the Inquisition and Grey Knights(I can't remember the name for them but they've popped up here in there in actual lore and BL novels.

disdamn wrote:
that will ultimately see the return of the lost primarchs and Roboute who will promptly start a civil war amongst the Imperium to purge it of the crazy lunancy that's taken it over

Hmm, don't think tha'd be too straightforward. The Imperium has become the grimdark empire of crazy it is out of need to survive. It needs to be all brutal and crazy just to stay intact, and to fight off those uppity xenos and heretics.

And, really, 40K's present day would be an utterly terrible time for an Imperium-wide civil war. The enemies facing the Imperium are pretty much at their worst, with Chaos making more progress than ever against the Cadian Gate, and two other massive threats (the 'Nids and 'Crons respectively) becoming ever more numerous and threatening. Apart from that, there's the usual spates of heresy, rebellions and other assorted xenos threats to deal with too.

My viewpoint is that, if one or some of the "old guard" were to come back (a loyalist Primarch or Big E himself), they'd likely have to put up with the Imperuim's current state, at least until the Imperium is in a more secure position. With the way things are, a major and aggressive reformation could well fatally damage the Imperium.

The remaining loyalist primarchs (with the possible exception of Roboute) are not known for their cunning, or willingness to go with what other people say.

They're commanders, leaders, with extreme psychicly enhanced charisma and a genetic need to lead.

Also the space marines of a primarch (including successor chapters) would have it in their genetic code to obey and be inspired by their primarch.

Roboute may play along and manipulate his chapter and successor chapters back into the straight way of thinking, Really though, the primarchs are not and have never really been people who play along. They're genetically engineered to be the Alpha and lead and tell others how it is and you can bet that's how it would play out.

There would be civial war because the High Lords, and eccesliarchy would see the primarchs as a threat once they realized the primarchs would not tow the line and the space marine chapters started falling in line because they're genetically programmed to. Heresy charges would be quick to follow once the High Lords and ecclesiarchy started to see their power slip.

Their would be civil war because there would be no other choice. And that's pretty grim-dark if you ask me.

Civil war in the imperium as the primarchs come back. Chaos takes advantage and starts a huge invasion with the traitor primarchs coming out of hiding. Cadia falls, the outer systems start to fall one-by-one. Successor chapters bordering major warp rifts are annhiliated by the overwhelming chaos hordes.

The Illuminati (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Illuminati) use the confusion of the civil war and chaos incursion to trigger their final plan and get the Emperor up just in time to help end the internal civil war (because the Emperor is the only person in the galaxy a primarch would listen to) and bring mankind (inquisition, High Lords, etc... under control after an internal purge of untrustworthies.

Meanwhile the alien races are taking advantage of the civil war, and chaos incursion to expand their own borders.

Mankind beats back the forces of chaos, but only just barely after another siege of Terra leaving mankind still struggling to recover the pieces they have to rebuild yet again to retake the worlds fallen by chaos and the necrons, and the orks, and the Tau, as well as beating back tyranids.

There's really only one situation in which the Emperor or the Primarchs would ever come back though. And that's if sales started to significantly dip. It's probably their last ditch plan sealed away in a vault somewhere to use if GW profits ever dipped below a certain threshold X quarters in a row.

disdamn wrote:
The remaining loyalist primarchs (with the possible exception of Roboute) are not known for their cunning, or willingness to go with what other people say.

Sure they are. What about the Codex Astartes? Major example of compromise from a lot of the more stubborn Primarchs, right there. And that too was for the Imperium's sake.

disdamn wrote:
They're commanders, leaders, with extreme psychicly enhanced charisma and a genetic need to lead.

And as leaders, they would likely have the understanding that a civil war would be very bad for the Imperium at present. See above, they've done this sort of compromise before.

disdamn wrote:
Also the space marines of a primarch (including successor chapters) would have it in their genetic code to obey and be inspired by their primarch.

Not really. What about loyalist Marines who go rogue? They are clearly quite happy to go agianst their Primarch.

disdamn wrote:
the primarchs are not and have never really been people who play along.

Again, Codex Astartes.

disdamn wrote:
They're genetically engineered to be the Alpha and lead and tell others how it is and you can bet that's how it would play out.

You seem to be assuming that the Primarchs are all single-minded and incapable of compromise. Tell me, what would be better for their father's Imperium, a massive civil war in the midist of the growing power of three game-over tier threats, or playing along a bit and co-operating with the current Imperium in order to help the Imperium survive? Reform can always happen later, once it's a better time to do so.

disdamn wrote:
and the space marine chapters started falling in line because they're genetically programmed to.

Source? Again, we've seen plenty of disloyalty. And if you want to view the Horus Heresy series as 100% canonical, then the traitor legions actaully had Marines who refused to follow their respective Primarchs into heresy.

disdamn wrote:
Their would be civil war because there would be no other choice.

Apart from, you know, not instigating a civil war?

disdamn wrote:
The Illuminati (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Illuminati) use the confusion of the civil war and chaos incursion to trigger their final plan and get the Emperor up just in time to help end the internal civil war (because the Emperor is the only person in the galaxy a primarch would listen to) and bring mankind (inquisition, High Lords, etc... under control after an internal purge of untrustworthies.

There's some doubt as to whether the Illuminati are still canon, though. They haven't been mentioned for quite some time, and other possible outcomes have since been mentioned in the fluff (The Emperor becomes a new Chaos god upon dying, the Emperor is actually a perpetual and just regenerates upon dying). Apart from that, we have no idea if this would actually happen, or. The thing with Big E is that him coming back is shrouded in ambiguity. We're not sure how it will happen, or even if it will. Therefore, your imagined scenatio here relies on something that may or may not happen, nor necessarily happen in the way in which you described.

As an aside, I wouldn't recommend that wiki as a source. It has a reputation for not citing or mis-citing its info and being rife with fanficiton. I'd recomment the 40K Lexicanum instead. It's still not 100% accurate, but it takes a hard-line against fanfic stuff, and places an emphasis on citing its information with sources. Generally, it's far more reliable.

disdamn wrote:
Meanwhile the alien races are taking advantage of the civil war, and chaos incursion to expand their own borders.

And the Tyranids, and the Necrons. The Orks will probably create some of their own brand of fun from this, too. And the Tau probably wouldn't mind grabbing some new worlds. And uppity worlds might like the chance to be free from the Imperium... You get the idea, there's a lot of big threats towards the Imperium, it's not just Chaos that would be massively hammering the Imperium in the event of a civil war. Personally, I doubt that the Imperium would survive, or at least ever recover from another major civil war, at this point.

disdamn wrote:
Mankind beats back the forces of chaos

Doubtful. They're barely holding them back now, with all of the casualties a civil war would incur, they'd get steamrolled.