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The Scout special rule states that "if the unit is Infantry, Artillery, a Walker or a Monstrous Creature, each model can redeploy anywhere entirely within 6" of it's current position. If it is any other unit type, each model can instead redeploy anywhere entirely within 12" of its current position" (BRB p. 41, "Scout") For the purposes of this rule, which category do FMCs and JMCs (Jump Monstrous Creatures) fall into? Are they a subset of MC and restricted to 6", or can they move 12"?

FMCs have their own page and special rules, it would appear that Jump/Jet MCs are also considered separate unit types. It would also make sense that Jump/Flying MCs get to move farther, since the 6" restriction covers all the unit types that can only move 6" anyway. However, "Monstrous Creature" is pretty close to "Jump Monstrous Creature" (especially since that category doesn't otherwise have any special rules associated with it per RAW). What do you think? RAW, RAI, and HIWPI all welcome.

Jump / Jet MC's are a subset of MC's. FMC's are a separate entry. Something that only affects MC should not affect JMC but I think GW is a bit wooly on that by FAQ's.

RAW: A Jump MC is both a Monstrous Creature and a Jump unit, Flying Monstrous Creatures are a unique unit type. Jump MCs would have a 6 inch Scout move, FMCs can Scout move 12 inches.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
RAW: A Jump MC is both a Monstrous Creature and a Jump unit, Flying Monstrous Creatures are a unique unit type. Jump MCs would have a 6 inch Scout move, FMCs can Scout move 12 inches.

So by your interpretation, Jump Infantry can only scout 6"?

 Maelstrom808 wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
RAW: A Jump MC is both a Monstrous Creature and a Jump unit, Flying Monstrous Creatures are a unique unit type. Jump MCs would have a 6 inch Scout move, FMCs can Scout move 12 inches.

So by your interpretation, Jump Infantry can only scout 6"?

Yes. This is correct. Infantry (and, by extension, their sub-types, Jet/Jump) may only Scout 6". How is this controversial?

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
How is this controversial?

Two reasons. First, Jump Infantry is precisely the sort of unit one expects to be able to Scout 12" instead of 6". Second, by your reasoning, it qualifies for both 6" and 12", so the RaW is contradictory.

Pyrian wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
How is this controversial?

Two reasons. First, Jump Infantry is precisely the sort of unit one expects to be able to Scout 12" instead of 6". Second, by your reasoning, it qualifies for both 6" and 12", so the RaW is contradictory.

I don't see how that is contradictory. FMC has its own unit type in the BRB while Jump Infantry is just a subsection of Infantry. FMC just move like Jump MC while they are gliding.

Pyrian wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
How is this controversial?

Two reasons. First, Jump Infantry is precisely the sort of unit one expects to be able to Scout 12" instead of 6". Second, by your reasoning, it qualifies for both 6" and 12", so the RaW is contradictory.

Infantry are specifically called out to Scout 6". Jump Infantry are still Infantry, and so only get to move 6". They do not qualify for both 6" and 12".

 Nilok wrote:
I don't see how that is contradictory. FMC has its own unit type in the BRB while Jump Infantry is just a subsection of Infantry. FMC just move like Jump MC while they are gliding.

This is correct.

Pyrian wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
How is this controversial?

Two reasons. First, Jump Infantry is precisely the sort of unit one expects to be able to Scout 12" instead of 6". Second, by your reasoning, it qualifies for both 6" and 12", so the RaW is contradictory.

Rule book page 47, read the paragraph which in bold at the top of the page. You do follow the rules for both jump and infantry.

It does mean they really drew the short straw. Under things like movement, don't think of it like one says 6 one says 12, it's actually more of a one gives permission up to 6, the other gives permission up to 12.

On review, 12" wins outright. It's Infantry, so gets 6", but it's also Jump, and therefore replaces the 6" with the 12". Not actually a contradiction after all.

Oh, and Jump Infantry are not a subtype of Infantry. Jump can be applied to any unit type.

If the unit is Infantry, Artillery, a Walker or a Monstrous Creature, each model can redeploy anywhere entirely within 6

If it is any other unit type, each model can instead redeploy anywhere entirely within 12" of its current position

'Jump' is not a classification in and of itself.

Jump Infantry would, for example, follow the rules for Jump units and Infantry.

The rules are a bit contradictory here. If Jump is not a classification, then it cannot fit into the 12" permission.

It's not a classification "in itself" (meaning you can never have a unit that's just Jump), but it is a classification nonetheless. "Jump Infantry" is a unit type which is both Infantry and Jump.

Pyrian wrote:
It's not a classification "in itself" (meaning you can never have a unit that's just Jump), but it is a classification nonetheless. "Jump Infantry" is a unit type which is both Infantry and Jump.

So if you cannot have a unit that is just "Jump" where do you get permission for anything other than 6" ? There is no "other" unit to classify the infantry as.

Fragile wrote:

Pyrian wrote:
It's not a classification "in itself" (meaning you can never have a unit that's just Jump), but it is a classification nonetheless. "Jump Infantry" is a unit type which is both Infantry and Jump.

So if you cannot have a unit that is just "Jump" where do you get permission for anything other than 6" ? There is no "other" unit to classify the infantry as.

This does not make much sense to me. There is an "other" unit classification they have. It is Jump.

That 'Jump' is always in association with another unit type in no way means that it is not it's own unit type as well. That it has it's own section establishes that 'Jump' indeed is it's own unit type. Their entry also makes it clear they also have a 'normal type'. So they are both. Jump-infantry is both 'Jump' and 'infantry'.

 Abandon wrote:

Fragile wrote:

Pyrian wrote:
It's not a classification "in itself" (meaning you can never have a unit that's just Jump), but it is a classification nonetheless. "Jump Infantry" is a unit type which is both Infantry and Jump.

So if you cannot have a unit that is just "Jump" where do you get permission for anything other than 6" ? There is no "other" unit to classify the infantry as.

This does not make much sense to me. There is an "other" unit classification they have. It is Jump.

(Jump' is not a classification in and of itself). Pg 47 conflicts with your statement.

Fragile wrote:

 Abandon wrote:

Fragile wrote:

Pyrian wrote:
It's not a classification "in itself" (meaning you can never have a unit that's just Jump), but it is a classification nonetheless. "Jump Infantry" is a unit type which is both Infantry and Jump.

So if you cannot have a unit that is just "Jump" where do you get permission for anything other than 6" ? There is no "other" unit to classify the infantry as.

This does not make much sense to me. There is an "other" unit classification they have. It is Jump.

(Jump' is not a classification in and of itself). Pg 47 conflicts with your statement.

Actually it is. It is a unit type by virtue of having an entry in the units section just like the other types..

Perhaps you meant that it is not a classification that is ever by itself. Which is slightly different and also meaningless in this debate.

Your failing to acknowledge the quote in the Jump section that disputes your statement. Until you address it, your argument is has no basis.

Fragile wrote:
Your failing to acknowledge the quote in the Jump section that disputes your statement. Until you address it, your argument is has no basis.

And this quote is...what exactly?

 Abandon wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Your failing to acknowledge the quote in the Jump section that disputes your statement. Until you address it, your argument is has no basis.

And this quote is...what exactly?

I'm pretty sure he is talking about the line:

Jump is not a classification in and of itself.

Jump is not a classification, it's a modifier to another category.

Jump Infantry follow the rules for Infantry, therefore they scout 6".

Zhent wrote:

 Abandon wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Your failing to acknowledge the quote in the Jump section that disputes your statement. Until you address it, your argument is has no basis.

And this quote is...what exactly?

I'm pretty sure he is talking about the line:

Jump is not a classification in and of itself.

Jump is not a classification, it's a modifier to another category.

Jump Infantry follow the rules for Infantry, therefore they scout 6".

That line makes it clear that there is no such thing as a unit with just 'Jump' as it's type. That does not mean that Jump Infantry does not vary in type from Infantry.

"Jump units therefore share two sets of rules, the Jump unit rules, and those of their base type. Jump Infantry would, for example, follow the rules for Jump units and Infantry."

This line makes it clear that 'Jump' is a unit type that is always joined with another unit type. This does not relegate 'Jump' to 'just a modification' but rather indicates an equal conjoining of the two types. If you prefer, a strictly additional unit type.

That 'Jump' by itself is not a unit type does not mean it is not a unit type at all. Especially as the next two lines make it clear that is so because it never is by itself.

I agree with all of that. However, Jump infantry share the Infantry rules. Infantry scout 6". Therefore, Jump Infantry scout 6".

Zhent wrote:
I agree with all of that. However, Jump infantry share the Infantry rules. Infantry scout 6". Therefore, Jump Infantry scout 6".

They have two types.
Being Infantry, they are permitted to scout 6"
Being Jump, they are permitted to scout 12"

They are both, must follow the rules as both and as such have both permissions.