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Hi guys,

looking for feedback on my list! Even if it's just a short comment, I would appreciate it!

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HQ

Shrike (185)

Elites

5 Sternguard (195)
- 1 heavy flamer
- 3 combi-melta
- drop pod

Troops

7 Scouts (98)
- camo cloaks, sniper rifles

5 Tactical Marines (160)
- plasma cannon
- razorback with TLAC

5 Tactical Marines (160)
- plasma cannon
- razorback with TLAC

5 Tactical Marines (125)
- meltagun, combi-melta
- drop pod

5 Tactical Marines (125)
- meltagun, combi-melta
- drop pod

Fast Attack

10 Assault Marines (200)
- jump packs, 2 flamers, sergeant with combat shield and power weapon

5 Bikes (145)
- 2 grav-guns, combi-grav

Fortifications

Aegis Defense Line (100)
- Quad-gun

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All up it gives me 48 marines, 5-7 scoring units. First turn I'll drop two pods. Shrike + 10 ASM infiltrate, then can split up. Obviously the razors are scouting, and the scouts are getting 2+ cover saves in ruins first turn. I was considering swapping one pod tac squad for a 5 man assault squad with 2 flamers in a pod, which would save me 25 points for another couple of scouts or something.

THOUGHTS APPRECIATED

Is there a particular reason the tacticals are just 5 man squads? I find MSU are easily wiped out nowadays, you'll drop in, get one round of shooting, and be dead. Plasma cannons I assume are being left at home to hold objectives, and the razorback itself is being scouted forward, because the plasma cannon can't shot when it disembarks.

If you're going for this list for fun reasons, then that's awesome, have a blast. But if you're trying to be competitive with it Shriek is really bad, only AP3 lightning claws and power armor(an equally geared captain is tons cheaper), so you're paying for the infiltrate, and infiltrating an assault squad is bad since you can't charge first turn when infiltrating, which means if you go first your assault marines can't do anything assaulty, and if you go second you risk getting shot off the board.(Shriek gives you stealth so sitting in a ruin can help alleviate this, it still leaves them wide open to attack though.

A single bike squad that isn't white scars is probably an easy target, you don't benefit from any of the raven guard chapter tactics being a bulky unit so no scout, no stealth. I imagine the squad will be wiped out really fast.

7 scouts is an odd number, you could drop one and take a missile launcher for added value.

Hey mate, thanks for the reply!

This is intended to be a competitive list haha. Thanks for raising these issues, I'll explain my thinking and if you can show me where I'm going wrong that would be great

There are a few reasons I went with MSU. By taking multiple small units I can get more of the particular weapons that I want, and not spend so much on additional wounds. If I maxed my drop pod units I wouldn't be able to afford 3, which would mean I may get 5 extra bodies, but I'm halving the number of melta shots and the likelihood of popping a tank. In somewhat of an alpha-strike list, survivability comes not through extra wounds, but through killing more stuff on arrival. It also means that they have to split their fire more - it's usually easier to kill 10 men in a single squad than it is to kill two 5 man squads.

Whether the PC tacs ride in the razorbacks or not will depend on the situation. If I have first turn, I can scout the tacs 6" in the razorback, deploy them another 6" and then they are ready to fire on turn one. If I have second turn, and am afraid of the opponent's firepower, I will either still scout and then deploy them into cover where again they can fire first turn, or I will keep them in the razorback to act as protection. It's win-win I think.

I have found Shrike to be quite useful in all my games so far. As I've said, I'm going for something of an alpha strike. If I go first, I can get an assault squad within flaming + pistol distance to shoot on turn one, ready for a big turn 2 charge. If Shrike were alone he would get blown apart, but the enemy also has to deal with the 2 scouting TLAC razorbacks, 2 PC tac squads, kitted-out sternguard, DP melta tacs, bikes and scouts sitting on a quad-gun. All of which are simple enough to kill on their own, but it gives them 10 different legitimate threats to choose between, and they've got 0-1 turns before they get alpha-striked. If they do get first turn, I've still got stealth, scout, reserves and an ADL to help me.

Apart from his AP3, Shrike is pretty decent in combat. He essentially has 7 attacks on the charge (2 re-rolls is usually essentially the same as having +2 attacks) which is already a big bonus over a normal captain. His ability to infiltrate means you get to pick your target (unlike a regular captain), and not just for him but for a whole flamer ASM unit. With ~7 attacks, shred, rending, initiative 5, WS 6 and AP 3, he is designed to do one thing - kill medium to light infantry. Funnily enough, the flamer bearing assault marines that he goes with are designed to do exactly that too. In the alpha-strike plan, Shrike usually gets to burn a squad of his choosing, then draw a lot of the enemy fire on the following turn and either survive with stealth or take the heat off so that the rest of the army can survive.

The 5 bikes are probably an easy target as you say, but the point of this kind of list is that a unit which would usually be treated as a high threat is only one of many. They don't benefit from RG chapter tactics, but they are still one of the best options in the book and bring some flexibility and added mobility.

I've had a bit of a thought though, and would love some feedback on it. I'm considering dropping the bikes and two of the scouts, bringing in Tigurius and switching half of the army to Ultramarines. I would swap the sternguard, scouts and two melta tacticals across to UM CT (UM would become primary). The bikes are a great unit, but my theory is this: At the moment the drop pods don't benefit at all from the RG chapter tactics, except for stealth, which is pretty lousy. By making them ultramarines, I could give them all re-rolls to hit on turn one, making the sternguard and tac squad much more reliable as they alpha-strike. I could also make the scouts ultramarines, as a round of re-rolls is probably better than a round of stealth. Not only that, but depending on my opponent I can either drop Tigurius into the heart of the enemy, where he can cause some real mayhem and mischief (puppet-master, invisibility, hallucinate, telekinetic dome, anything from divination etc.), or I can keep him back and buff some guys at home. What do you think is better, the bikes, or buffing the drop pods and bringing in Tigurius?

Thanks a million!

I just think the idea of using small squads of tacticals is a fundamentally flawed idea. Back in 5th when you could do that with a bunch of Razorbacks it was good, you could sit in your metal box for all eternity. Now with hull points, that doesn't work.

No army in the game is going to look at a group of 5 tacticals and go "That's a threat, that has to die right now", especially one moving up with a plasma cannon, you can't fire it if you disembark/move so they can just move out of it's line of fire or take cover before it gets a shot off. Even Sternguard, after they pop their meltas, aren't the most threatening units, they are still 3+ save space marines.

I never said shrike was 'bad', just overcosted for what he does. He is okay in combat but you can equip a captain with equal or better gear for less, so you're paying extra for the infiltrate and stealth. Is it worth it? I don't think so, but if it works for you, by all means.

So you're left with Shrikes assault squad, who can't get locked in combat and have to sit out for a whole turn of being shot at. 3+ marines, like I said, won't have much chance of living, and the rest of your army is really not threatening enough compared to the large assault squad.

Your ideas sound interesting, but I don't know how well they'll work. Tigurius is a boss for sure, but he's more of a supporty guy than a killy guy and needs a squad to support, like some centurions or devastators.

Try it out and see how it works.

Thanks again man, really good to mull over some of those points.

I think that the tacticals are still a tempting target, which is what every unit is supposed to be. They are scoring, they are mobile if their razorback is alive, they still have a plasma cannon and being a squad of only five, they make a tantalizing target. As I mentioned, I don't plan to move them around in the game unless it's to grab a late objective - I will most likely scout move them, then disembark them into cover. I don't plan to move them up each turn, I plan to shoot at full BS from a good position, making use of my ability to scout them 12" where they disembark into mid-table cover with stealth before the game starts. I suppose the opponent might move their army around to avoid LOS of 2 plasma cannons, but with 2 TLAC, snipers, quad-gun, infiltrating flamers, 3 drop pods and either grav-gun bikes or Tigurius, they can't hide from it all.

A captain with the same gear costs 50 points less. For that, Shrike gets 2 re-rolls (again, usually the equivalent of +2 attacks), he gives stealth to the whole squad, and has rending. Even if all of that were only worth 20 points, and 30 points are paid just for the right to infiltrate a squad, for the ability to get an assault squad stuck in a turn earlier, PLUS to have the ability to choose your target and not get stranded on the wrong side of the battlefield thanks to enemy deployment, it might just be worth it. I reckon that getting to throw down the flamer templates + bolt pistols first turn is a huge bonus, with the potential of charging too if I go second. Could the opponent just shoot the squad before I get to flame them if they go first? Yes, but they could do that if he was a normal captain, in fact they'd have an extra turn to do it, they could set up their firing lanes much easier during deployment, and I wouldn't have stealth. Basically Shrike actually has some really strong defensive advantages over any other captain, the only reason he is more "vulnerable" in a sense is that he poses a higher and more immediate threat.

If I do go first, Shrike's squad is quite likely to be left exposed after they charge in and flame (if that's the right move to perform). Cover would be preferable, but it's not always that easy. But if I do go first, I will have hit them hard with an alpha strike and should be able to handle a few losses. After that point it will just be a mop up effort. I'm not in it for the long haul, my key defensive strategy is to crush the enemy on turn one so that there is no real chance of retaliation. I feel that Raven Guard are all about turn one - they scout, they infiltrate, they have a single turn of stealth to help them and they're designed to bring swift justice to the enemy. Going second in an alpha strike list is never ideal, but that's why I have the pods, the ADL, and Shrike's buddies are potentially better off with going second anyway. Remember that all up it's still 48 marines at 1500 points, which isn't exactly low model count AFAIK, it's just that there are a greater number of units for the opponent to have to split their fire between.

I normally run 4 5 man tac squads with las cannons and two 5 man scout squads with shotguns in land speeder storms with heavy flamer. With the ADL is put 18 inches up so I scout to that as the redeployment allows me to fire first turn. I then run two dev teams one plasma cannons and one heavy Bolter both with some ablative wounds. It works out quite well and I usually take a chapter master with my assault squad decked out with shield eternal and burnin blade. It's a decent list but more of a gun line then an alpha strike. But 5 man MSU units do work!!!! I have only lost 1 game with the new codex using a list like this.