Author |
Message |
 |
|
 |
Advert
|
Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
- No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
- Times and dates in your local timezone.
- Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
- Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
- Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now. |
|
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/25 22:34:25
Subject: Units are charged too much for assault capabilities in 6th ed in general
|
 |
Locked in the Tower of Amareo
|
Title pretty much says it all. This is a spawn of the "how to CC" thread. Of course, there are the magic exceptions to this, like seer council and screamerstar. But for your grunt space marine of even striking scorpion, they are being charged a lot for gear they will likely never be able to use. Because they will get shot to death.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/25 22:42:22
Subject: Units are charged too much for assault capabilities in 6th ed in general
|
 |
Legendary Master of the Chapter
|
Not really much tactics.
I don't see how grunt space marines are being charged for assault capabilities. they come with grenades for free, and 5 points for a melta bomb is not that over priced. (unless by grunt your talking about assault marines or blood angels)
|
Unit1126PLL wrote: Scott-S6 wrote:And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.
Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/25 22:46:14
Subject: Units are charged too much for assault capabilities in 6th ed in general
|
 |
Locked in the Tower of Amareo
|
Well. I mean marines are charged for grenades (I doubt they are free) S4, WS 4, and a bolt pistol. Marines don't even get one thing that would actually be worth paying for: an extra CC weapon.
The S4, WS 4, grenades and bolt pistol are all ignored by shooting armies.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/25 22:59:50
Subject: Units are charged too much for assault capabilities in 6th ed in general
|
 |
Legendary Master of the Chapter
|
A marine is 14ppm that includes grenades bolt pistols s4 ws4. it also however includes t4 and bs4 which is great for shooting as well as a 3+ which isnt even remotely bad. i don't see how they are over costed/charged for the extras. (im trying to remember the costs of grenades from the old BT codex but i cant find a copy :/ at least compared to one of the better shooting things around being Tau (fire warrior) at 5 points less per model and having -1 stats slashed across the board. I agree that is completely bonkers that you cant buy a butter knife for a marine to affix to his bolt gun even though the kits come with them.
|
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/11/25 23:02:16
Unit1126PLL wrote: Scott-S6 wrote:And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.
Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/25 23:05:43
Subject: Units are charged too much for assault capabilities in 6th ed in general
|
 |
Locked in the Tower of Amareo
|
After the price drop, I still feel that marines are not worth 14 ppm. They are just dying too quickly against Xeno shooting. Part of the problem is that they are easy to put on foot, and then they are just victims.
I'm probably up against too many netlists. And Xeno lists just have better gimmicks for their troops right now. And things like the helldrake barbecue all troops equally well, making it so the Tau are just losing 5 pts less per barbeque victim.
But for something even worse, look at a TH/SS terminator. Way overcosted.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/25 23:06:21
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/25 23:10:16
Subject: Units are charged too much for assault capabilities in 6th ed in general
|
 |
Legendary Master of the Chapter
|
Perhaps its the meta indeed. at 35 points, a drop or a rhino. moving across the the field on T-1 does really well. even if wrecked in the previous turn as 18" then a following 6" should be kissing the enemy DZ even better with scout.
I agree that Terminators in general are way overcosted at the moment especially with the number of AP2 running around now.
|
Unit1126PLL wrote: Scott-S6 wrote:And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.
Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/25 23:13:21
Subject: Units are charged too much for assault capabilities in 6th ed in general
|
 |
Locked in the Tower of Amareo
|
The problem is that scoot and shoot trumps this strategy.
For example, savvy Eldar keep their shields up to blunt a drop alpha strike, and then catapult hilarity ensues, because the marines can't assault the turn they drop. They are stuck in "shoot my face off" limbo.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/25 23:21:41
Subject: Re:Units are charged too much for assault capabilities in 6th ed in general
|
 |
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight
|
Dude, this thread is a rant, not a tactical discussion. I think this should be in general discussion, not tactics.
|
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/25 23:22:48
Subject: Re:Units are charged too much for assault capabilities in 6th ed in general
|
 |
Locked in the Tower of Amareo
|
greyknight12 wrote:Dude, this thread is a rant, not a tactical discussion. I think this should be in general discussion, not tactics.
True, how do I move it?
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/25 23:32:16
Subject: Units are charged too much for assault capabilities in 6th ed in general
|
 |
Boom! Leman Russ Commander
|
now THIS I can agree with. Many of the old, no brainers have simply become obsolete with the new 6th edition and newer editions of the codexes. I might be wrong, but I suspect this is on purpose to force us to buy more models. lol
that being said, I feel that there are some units that stand out as being new no brainers when trying to decide what assault units to take (if you are wanting to use assault units).
you will also note that some units have become more well rounded. Forexample, in earlier editions chaos marines had to choose bolter OR bolt pistol and CCW. Now, they get BOTH.so that while before, it was geared for one role or the other, it can now do both to a degree.
you could PM an admin and ask them to move the thread to where you want it or to where they think it is more appropriate.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/26 09:15:20
Subject: Units are charged too much for assault capabilities in 6th ed in general
|
 |
Repentia Mistress
|
I think the current SM assault marines are fairly costed, and so are their upgrades. It's just how they work inside of 6th. With even the lowly firewarrior blowing this kind of unit out of the water with a massive 36'' threat range wounding on 3's.... it's tough to push multiple squads into combat.
And honestly the payoff isn't great, usually takes multiple turns to get into combat plus I'd wager at least another to actually finish a MEQ unit off.
Also shooting really synergizes with scoring, you can't assault something and hold an objective most of the time.
On a side note I really feel not being able to disembark from rhino's hurt 6th. A LOT of armies would change if that wasn't true.
Khorne berserkers really want vengeance!
|
hey what time is it?
"Try looking on page 12 of the FAQ."
-Ghaz |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/26 09:34:19
Subject: Units are charged too much for assault capabilities in 6th ed in general
|
 |
Tzeentch Aspiring Sorcerer Riding a Disc
The darkness between the stars
|
EVIL INC wrote:now THIS I can agree with. Many of the old, no brainers have simply become obsolete with the new 6th edition and newer editions of the codexes. I might be wrong, but I suspect this is on purpose to force us to buy more models. lol
that being said, I feel that there are some units that stand out as being new no brainers when trying to decide what assault units to take (if you are wanting to use assault units).
you will also note that some units have become more well rounded. Forexample, in earlier editions chaos marines had to choose bolter OR bolt pistol and CCW. Now, they get BOTH.so that while before, it was geared for one role or the other, it can now do both to a degree.
you could PM an admin and ask them to move the thread to where you want it or to where they think it is more appropriate.
You actually have to pay an extra cost for the ccw which then ruins the one slight thing that CSM had that made them better than Marines (that being said CSM are better than SM in general What I mean is giving them ccw either makes them cost equal or more than loyalists despite all the benefits they get over them)
|
2375
/ 1690
WIP (1875)
1300
760
WIP (350)
WIP (150) |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/26 10:08:30
Subject: Units are charged too much for assault capabilities in 6th ed in general
|
 |
Boosting Space Marine Biker
|
What about scouts? They're obviously not as survivable or powerful as marines but they do get access to ccw. Coming out of a storm? No?
I'm curious as I'll be fielding two storms in my bike list and am still debating On the scouts loadouts.
|
Solid Fists 2000 wip |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/26 10:42:45
Subject: Units are charged too much for assault capabilities in 6th ed in general
|
 |
Brainy Zoanthrope
|
StarTrotter wrote:
You actually have to pay an extra cost for the ccw which then ruins the one slight thing that CSM had that made them better than Marines (that being said CSM are better than SM in general What I mean is giving them ccw either makes them cost equal or more than loyalists despite all the benefits they get over them)
CSM are better than marines? For 1pt per model they get ATSKNF and chapter tactics, have no compulsory sergeant and better transport options. Loyalists are far superior troops, but that's an aside.
I don't think assault units are overpriced across the board I just think that they are more prone to being the turkey (of the non Hell variety) of the dex. Do your Chosen want a power weapon and no access to an assault vehicle aside from a separate heavy purchase or a Plasma Gun?
Compare this to the prices of units you do see, Seekers and Khorne Dogs being the best examples. Much more reasonable prices for what you get. A unit capable of delivering itself to combat reliably and doing significant damage when there.
A seeker is cavalry, +6" run, rending, 3 attacks and hits marines on 3 and scores in one mission.
A banshee is infantry, +3" run, AP3, 2 attacks and hits marines on a 4.
Yet the Banshee, despite coming from the new top dog book, is more expensive.
Now, melee units don't have the monopoly on being overcosted (Oh Pyrovore why do you keep hurting me so) but I can agree with Martel that they have some of the worst examples.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/26 13:12:32
Subject: Re:Units are charged too much for assault capabilities in 6th ed in general
|
 |
Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets
|
It's less that units are charged to much for assault, and more this edition pretty much screws all assault over, especially MEQ based assault.
Not to mention there's some things that are even worse in this edition as well, terminators are still overcosted when it comes to shooting platforms as well.
A seeker is cavalry, +6" run, rending, 3 attacks and hits marines on 3 and scores in one mission.
A banshee is infantry, +3" run, AP3, 2 attacks and hits marines on a 4.
Yet the Banshee, despite coming from the new top dog book, is more expensive.
You also forget the other capabilities of the Banshee, like ignoring AP3, 4+ armour, and the scream.
Of course the problem is they have no way of getting to combat unlike seekers, which makes them worthless.
The problem with this edition is the inability to GET TO COMBAT. Most assault units are either fast deathstars (Screamstar, Jetstar), or rushing with multiple things at once (Flying Circus), or just absurdly tough (Tyranids with full iron arm units)
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/26 14:03:49
Subject: Units are charged too much for assault capabilities in 6th ed in general
|
 |
Nurgle Predator Driver with an Infestation
Brantford, Ontario
|
EVIL INC wrote:now THIS I can agree with. Many of the old, no brainers have simply become obsolete with the new 6th edition and newer editions of the codexes. I might be wrong, but I suspect this is on purpose to force us to buy more models. lol
that being said, I feel that there are some units that stand out as being new no brainers when trying to decide what assault units to take (if you are wanting to use assault units).
you will also note that some units have become more well rounded. Forexample, in earlier editions chaos marines had to choose bolter OR bolt pistol and CCW. Now, they get BOTH.so that while before, it was geared for one role or the other, it can now do both to a degree.
That was last Editions codex, now we have to pay a pretty penny for that ccw/ Swap out our boltgun for it.
Like others have said ATSKNF is well worth that 1 more point if you ask moi.
|
Iron Warriors |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/26 15:11:21
Subject: Units are charged too much for assault capabilities in 6th ed in general
|
 |
Locked in the Tower of Amareo
|
Aijec wrote:I think the current SM assault marines are fairly costed, and so are their upgrades. It's just how they work inside of 6th. With even the lowly firewarrior blowing this kind of unit out of the water with a massive 36'' threat range wounding on 3's.... it's tough to push multiple squads into combat.
And honestly the payoff isn't great, usually takes multiple turns to get into combat plus I'd wager at least another to actually finish a MEQ unit off.
Also shooting really synergizes with scoring, you can't assault something and hold an objective most of the time.
On a side note I really feel not being able to disembark from rhino's hurt 6th. A LOT of armies would change if that wasn't true.
Khorne berserkers really want vengeance!
If they don't work correctly within the edition, that means they are overcosted still. If they are being blown out of the water, their price point needs to reflect this.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/26 15:13:53
Subject: Units are charged too much for assault capabilities in 6th ed in general
|
 |
Bloodthirsty Chaos Knight
|
You don't take tactical marines for assault purposes.
|
Space Wolves: 3770
Orks: 3000
Chaos Daemons: 1750
Warriors of Chaos: 2000
My avatar |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/26 15:14:02
Subject: Re:Units are charged too much for assault capabilities in 6th ed in general
|
 |
Locked in the Tower of Amareo
|
ZebioLizard2 wrote:It's less that units are charged to much for assault, and more this edition pretty much screws all assault over, especially MEQ based assault.
Not to mention there's some things that are even worse in this edition as well, terminators are still overcosted when it comes to shooting platforms as well.
A seeker is cavalry, +6" run, rending, 3 attacks and hits marines on 3 and scores in one mission.
A banshee is infantry, +3" run, AP3, 2 attacks and hits marines on a 4.
Yet the Banshee, despite coming from the new top dog book, is more expensive.
You also forget the other capabilities of the Banshee, like ignoring AP3, 4+ armour, and the scream.
Of course the problem is they have no way of getting to combat unlike seekers, which makes them worthless.
The problem with this edition is the inability to GET TO COMBAT. Most assault units are either fast deathstars (Screamstar, Jetstar), or rushing with multiple things at once (Flying Circus), or just absurdly tough (Tyranids with full iron arm units)
So shouldn't non-fast deathstars be a lot cheaper to field, then? If this edition screws over assault, that's a good argument for assault being cheaper isn't it? Automatically Appended Next Post:
But they pay for assault stats.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/26 15:14:27
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/26 15:16:45
Subject: Re:Units are charged too much for assault capabilities in 6th ed in general
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
But they pay for assault stats.
no they don't . marines don't pay for half the rules they have .
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/26 15:19:05
Subject: Re:Units are charged too much for assault capabilities in 6th ed in general
|
 |
Locked in the Tower of Amareo
|
Makumba wrote:But they pay for assault stats.
no they don't . marines don't pay for half the rules they have .
So WS 4, S4, I4, bolt pistol, and grenades are all free? I find that dubious.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/26 15:21:06
Subject: Re:Units are charged too much for assault capabilities in 6th ed in general
|
 |
Bloodthirsty Chaos Knight
|
Who says that price isn't for shooting stats instead? A Bolter at BS4 plus decent toughness and a 3+ armor and ATSKNF. Most of their options are shooting options anyway.
|
Space Wolves: 3770
Orks: 3000
Chaos Daemons: 1750
Warriors of Chaos: 2000
My avatar |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/26 15:24:06
Subject: Re:Units are charged too much for assault capabilities in 6th ed in general
|
 |
Locked in the Tower of Amareo
|
Wilytank wrote:
Who says that price isn't for shooting stats instead? A Bolter at BS4 plus decent toughness and a 3+ armor and ATSKNF. Most of their options are shooting options anyway.
What about assault marines then?
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/26 15:29:48
Subject: Re:Units are charged too much for assault capabilities in 6th ed in general
|
 |
Bloodthirsty Chaos Knight
|
Martel732 wrote: Wilytank wrote:
Who says that price isn't for shooting stats instead? A Bolter at BS4 plus decent toughness and a 3+ armor and ATSKNF. Most of their options are shooting options anyway.
What about assault marines then?
Remove bolter for CCW and add 4 points in exchange for a jump pack? Probably worth it in the end. My original point still stands, Tactical Marines were never intended to be an assault unit.
|
Space Wolves: 3770
Orks: 3000
Chaos Daemons: 1750
Warriors of Chaos: 2000
My avatar |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/26 15:30:44
Subject: Units are charged too much for assault capabilities in 6th ed in general
|
 |
Locked in the Tower of Amareo
|
I'm not saying they were. So can I sell back my assault stats and gear then to make them cheaper?
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/26 15:31:28
Subject: Re:Units are charged too much for assault capabilities in 6th ed in general
|
 |
Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets
|
Wilytank wrote:
Who says that price isn't for shooting stats instead? A Bolter at BS4 plus decent toughness and a 3+ armor and ATSKNF. Most of their options are shooting options anyway.
The only save I usually get in this edition has been cover saves with my CSM.
Mainly because there's either so much that ignores my 3+ save, or things that just break it anyways (Eldar Wave Serpents and Rending assault guns..)
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/26 15:33:25
Subject: Re:Units are charged too much for assault capabilities in 6th ed in general
|
 |
Locked in the Tower of Amareo
|
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Wilytank wrote:
Who says that price isn't for shooting stats instead? A Bolter at BS4 plus decent toughness and a 3+ armor and ATSKNF. Most of their options are shooting options anyway.
The only save I usually get in this edition has been cover saves with my CSM.
Mainly because there's either so much that ignores my 3+ save, or things that just break it anyways (Eldar Wave Serpents and Rending assault guns..)
Oh I still get *tons* of saves with meqs, in fact, I get so many saves I fail them and my meq die like slime anyway.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/26 16:05:56
Subject: Re:Units are charged too much for assault capabilities in 6th ed in general
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
Macclesfield, UK
|
Martel732 wrote:
Oh I still get *tons* of saves with meqs, in fact, I get so many saves I fail them and my meq die like slime anyway.
A 2/3 chance to save doesn't mean anything if your opponent gets 2/3 more the shooting.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/26 16:07:05
Subject: Units are charged too much for assault capabilities in 6th ed in general
|
 |
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
Martel732 wrote:I'm not saying they were. So can I sell back my assault stats and gear then to make them cheaper?
Min-maxing lists isn't enough? Now people want to min-max individual units? Oh lord...
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/26 16:10:08
Subject: Units are charged too much for assault capabilities in 6th ed in general
|
 |
Locked in the Tower of Amareo
|
Unit1126PLL wrote:Martel732 wrote:I'm not saying they were. So can I sell back my assault stats and gear then to make them cheaper?
Min-maxing lists isn't enough? Now people want to min-max individual units? Oh lord...
Not really. I'm pointing out how marines are likely charged for stats that most of them never get to use because of being on the wrong end of a pulse rifle. Automatically Appended Next Post: DarthOvious wrote:Martel732 wrote:
Oh I still get *tons* of saves with meqs, in fact, I get so many saves I fail them and my meq die like slime anyway.
A 2/3 chance to save doesn't mean anything if your opponent gets 2/3 more the shooting. 
Actually, it would be 200% more shooting, but we get the idea.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/26 16:10:46
|
|
 |
 |
|