Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So I was wondering what people thought about me taking Illic to boost the capabilities of my current army.

Really thinking of using him to push my 1850 list to a 2000 pt one.

I was thinking that he could be great for a multitude of purposes:
---Giving Vaul's Shrouding
---Giving Rangers a 2+ cover
---Deepstriking Rangers late game for Linebreaker
---Giving Normal Guardians Shrouding if I buy them a Bright Lance or Shuriken Cannon platform
---Giving Split Fire to a Storm Guardian Flamer, Guardian Bright Lance, or himself in most of these situations.

Another big reason I am considering this is because it's real money cost effective as well.



HQ
-Autarch (Fusion Gun; Laser Lance; Jetbike; Mantle of the Laughing God)

-Farseer (Jetbike; Singing Spear)

-Illic Nightspear

-Warlock (Singing Spear)



TROOP
-10 Guardian Defenders
---Wave Serpent (TL Scatter Lasers; Holo-Fields)

-10 Guardian Defenders
---Wave Serpent (TL Scatter Lasers; Holo-Fields)

-6 Rangers

-10 Storm Guardians (Flamer x2)
---Wave Serpent (TL Scatter Lasers; Holo-Fields)



FAST
-Crimson Hunter (Exarch)

-4 Shining Spears (Exarch; Star Lance; Monster Hunter)

-6 Swooping Hawks (Exarch; Sunrifle)



HEAVY
-Falcon (Bright Lance; Spirit Stones; Holo-Fields)

-Night Spinner (Holo-Fields)

-3 Vaul's Wrath Support Battery (Vibro Cannon)



1998/2000

Are you using him to upgrade your rangers?
I cant decide whether doubling their cost would achieve the same as taking double the number

ahzek wrote:
Are you using him to upgrade your rangers?
I cant decide whether doubling their cost would achieve the same as taking double the number

Actually no. I am not buying their upgrades. If I stick him with them they get his shrouding anyways...so I would just be missing the all hit are precision hits fun.

in which case that sound reasonable, precision hits are great, but im not sure there are enough occasions you need that many, any snipers are going to get a few anyway, shrouded is a big deal though

ahzek wrote:
in which case that sound reasonable, precision hits are great, but im not sure there are enough occasions you need that many, any snipers are going to get a few anyway, shrouded is a big deal though

i saw some mathhammer which showed the upgrade in terms of extra hits and precision shots is actually very low. Even with 5 rangers all hitting and wounding on 4+ your only likely to be getting 1 precision shot with the upgrade. and just under 1 without. So as far as I can tell the upgrade isnt particularly worth it.

I'm using him largely for his own abilities...not what he gives to rangers.

There just appears to be so many uses for him in a normal army, as I have listed above.

ahzek wrote:
in which case that sound reasonable, precision hits are great, but im not sure there are enough occasions you need that many, any snipers are going to get a few anyway, shrouded is a big deal though

You think he's worth it without Altoic then?

Well if he is there just to give a unit Shrouded, then a 70pt Spiritseer is a much wiser choice, considering that Illic's damage output is pretty negligible and his other abilities definitely don't add up to 70pts in value.

I feel that if you must play him, i feel its criminal not to pair him with an emplaced weapon, especially the Icarus Lascannon. That way his 4+ to wound doesn't get in the way of his damage output and even vehicles and fliers will be terrified of his sharpshooting.

 Farseer_Kaiser wrote:
Well if he is there just to give a unit Shrouded, then a 70pt Spiritseer is a much wiser choice, considering that Illic's damage output is pretty negligible and his other abilities definitely don't add up to 70pts in value.

I feel that if you must play him, i feel its criminal not to pair him with an emplaced weapon, especially the Icarus Lascannon. That way his 4+ to wound doesn't get in the way of his damage output and even vehicles and fliers will be terrified of his sharpshooting.

Well I will say that if I dropped Illic I could drop the Warlock, take 2 Spiritseers and still have 35 pts to spare.

Finally played Illic...he was actually performing very well for a few turns with just his sniper,,,killed a wave serpent with him...and when he finally didn't have a good shot I ran him up to my vaul's wrath and used his split fire in that unit to great effect.

Curious. If you "ran" him up to a vaul's wrath, then he would not be part of that unit, since independent characters can only join/leave squads in the movement phase. So the vaul's wrath battery could not make use of his split fire ability. Not that turn, at least.

Bojazz wrote:
Curious. If you "ran" him up to a vaul's wrath, then he would not be part of that unit, since independent characters can only join/leave squads in the movement phase. So the vaul's wrath battery could not make use of his split fire ability. Not that turn, at least.

Sorry, improper use of "ran"

I moved him up 4"

 ductvader wrote:
Finally played Illic...he was actually performing very well for a few turns with just his sniper,,,killed a wave serpent with him...and when he finally didn't have a good shot I ran him up to my vaul's wrath and used his split fire in that unit to great effect.

well that was lucky.

I personally do not have a high opinion of illic. what he gives to the rangers is not worth it, because you can just double the amount of rangers.
His buffs are OK, but he himself with his rifle is pretty bad. He will only wound every other turn, and the fact you killed a tank with it, let alone a waveserpent is great luck. And im surprised he survived, because the opponent was eldar and had waveserpents. Which meant he had ignores cover. which menas that illic should have been very esay to kill.
Like you said you can gert a spirit sear and a warlock and still have points to spare. Much better imo.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
Finally played Illic...he was actually performing very well for a few turns with just his sniper,,,killed a wave serpent with him...and when he finally didn't have a good shot I ran him up to my vaul's wrath and used his split fire in that unit to great effect.

well that was lucky.

I think it's like a 1/12 chance.

But I had a decent time taking out exarchs and the like all game.

I am not saying that his damage output is amazing by any means...but it's pretty good consider what options he gives me in gameplay. I wish they would have given his sword "distort" for his points.

what he gives to the rangers is not worth it, because you can just double the amount of rangers.

Just wanted to clarify this as I keep seeing it pop on this thread, but it takes 30 wounds on average to kill 5 Pathfinders, while it takes 20 wounds on average to kill 10 Rangers. The Pathfinders also get twice as many precision hits. Ignores cover can be the bane to Pathfinders existence, however.

5 pathfinders put out .926 wounds a turn shooting at tac marines. Thats not even one guy killed. thats why i use rangers for scoring objectives, and not for shooting.
2+ is the best cover save available. My rangers get that all the time. By going to ground in a ruin, or any 5+ terrain that gives you +2 to go to ground, and they have 2+ cover. There damage output is so minimal anyways that having to snapshot really doesnt matter. Pathfinders get that 2+, any get to shoot there shots to wound a guy every other turn.
10 rangers get douboe the amount of wounds that 5 pathfinders get, which still isnt great, but if your using rangers for anything other than scoring, then thats what you want.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
5 pathfinders put out .926 wounds a turn shooting at tac marines. Thats not even one guy killed. thats why i use rangers for scoring objectives, and not for shooting.
2+ is the best cover save available. My rangers get that all the time. By going to ground in a ruin, or any 5+ terrain that gives you +2 to go to ground, and they have 2+ cover. There damage output is so minimal anyways that having to snapshot really doesnt matter. Pathfinders get that 2+, any get to shoot there shots to wound a guy every other turn.
10 rangers get douboe the amount of wounds that 5 pathfinders get, which still isnt great, but if your using rangers for anything other than scoring, then thats what you want.

They don't need to GtG to get their 2+, which keeps there damage potential more constant. They also get twice as many precision hits/point (5 Paths get 3.33 while 10 Rangers get 1.667) meaning their damage is more likely to be meaningful. The two units are quite similar in raw numbers.

Regardless, when you're only taking one unit...don't upgrade...chances are that they'll simply get their 2+ by Illic joining them anyways.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
5 pathfinders put out .926 wounds a turn shooting at tac marines. Thats not even one guy killed. thats why i use rangers for scoring objectives, and not for shooting.
2+ is the best cover save available. My rangers get that all the time. By going to ground in a ruin, or any 5+ terrain that gives you +2 to go to ground, and they have 2+ cover. There damage output is so minimal anyways that having to snapshot really doesnt matter. Pathfinders get that 2+, and get to shoot there shots to wound a guy every other turn.
10 rangers get douboe the amount of wounds that 5 pathfinders get, which still isnt great, but if your using rangers for anything other than scoring, then thats what you want.

They don't need to GtG to get their 2+, which keeps there damage potential more constant. They also get twice as many precision hits/point (5 Paths get 3.33 while 10 Rangers get 1.667) meaning their damage is more likely to be meaningful. The two units are quite similar in raw numbers.

(note: Ductvader is correct, but i want to add something)

yes pathfinders dont need to go to ground to get the 2+. thats what i said. Them not going to ground means that they get to shoot every turn, not even scoring a full wound. So yes, you have a better chance of priscion shoting, but the fact is your not even scoring a full wound so that really doesnt matter. Yes, every other turn or so you will take out 1 special tac marine or equivilant, but is that really worth it?

Another way of looking at it:

60 points
Objective camper / distraction unit

Basically (ignoring an ignore cover shot), the enemy either has to ignore them, leaving them on an objective. Or they have to use a reasonable amount of power to kill them. And if they chose to do that, you go to ground, most likely nullifying their shots.

Resulting in the enemy wasting fire and not firing at your more important units. The benefit of having such a gakky wound output is that when they snapfire your not thinking 'bugger wish i hadn't gone to ground!'

So i would take them without the upgrade and simply use them to help saturate your enemies target choices and then any precision shots that take out a heavy weapon or captain is just a bonus. Having them on an objective means that at some point they do have to deal with them.

If they have a cover ignoring weapon then most likely it didnt matter what eldar unit you had in there, their most likely gone

Thanks for the list advice guys.

yes pathfinders dont need to go to ground to get the 2+. thats what i said. Them not going to ground means that they get to shoot every turn, not even scoring a full wound. So yes, you have a better chance of priscion shoting, but the fact is your not even scoring a full wound so that really doesnt matter. Yes, every other turn or so you will take out 1 special tac marine or equivilant, but is that really worth it?

I see what you are saying, but I still think you are selling them a bit short here. It's very, very close to one precise MEq wound/turn:

Assuming 5+ cover:

5(2÷3)(1÷2)(1÷3)+5(2÷3)(1÷6)(2÷3)= 0.93

If you are shooting at a unit out of cover, or just take 6, it's easily one wound/salvo against MEq. Considering these are all precision hits, that means you are killing a special, heavy weapon, or banner with them every turn, just about. And forcing a pinning test. A pinning test that could be further amplified if you have some Leadership debuffs on the field, or used those precision shots to remove a character. Its this snowball effect PFs were designed around.

But you are correct, unless you are making a build designed around maximizing those precision shots and pinning tests, it's probably safer to just stick with the Rangers.

And They Shall Know No Fear (thats what its called right?), makes all marines immune to pinning tests? Makes them fearless?

Solar Shock wrote:
And They Shall Know No Fear (thats what its called right?), makes all marines immune to pinning tests? Makes them fearless?

No, it just makes them automatically regroup (which is quite nice, but...) If they get pinned, they are still pinned.

Seriously, all this list input...STAGGERING.

 ductvader wrote:
Seriously, all this list input...STAGGERING.

well then be more useful, post some info about how you think he's performed in the last few games you've had. Has he made his points back in kills? What you've had problems with etc... what do you want? us to imagine games in our head, math him out and tell you how to change your list? We looked at your list and gave discussion on pros and cons of him (which by the way is what your title says.... trying out illic....),

what do you want?
The only other input you have given is that he killed some stuff.... yay.... loads to go on....
you want list help... but dont ask any questions related to lists, nor do you suggest what alterations you want to make.

Try being pro-active instead of just a pitifully sarky kid