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What would it take to make the thousand suns worthwhile?
I love the thousand suns, I started chaos back in third when rubric marines each had two wounds and ignored str4 weapons (at least I think that what they used to do it’s been a long long time and my memory is fading) but I digress

how do we fix the right now.

well I think a simple simple fix that would make them infinity more worthwhile would simply be, make all aspiring sorcs come stock Lvl 2, with access to divination, pyro, telepathy and biomancey
as well as sorc lords should get +1w and 1free lvl (starting at lvl2)

I was thinking about it recently and it would help the value of the rubric marines(which are hefty price for what they do/are epically in the days of cover saves and 2+ armors"

what are your thoughts, how would you improve it to make a thousand suns theme list work better

the smaller the change the better but sometimes you need to build from the ground up so if that’s your idea then great

Make their guns AP2 and 3++

I never followed Chaos much but aren't Thousand Suns supposed to be something like ghosts animating the armor? If so give them FNP. I would say Eternal Warrior, but I guess while great fluff, would be pretty pointless for single wound models.

Seems pretty pointless to give em EW with 1 wound each.

They should be more close to LoTD as armor = invul
Perhaps ignore cover.

Give them a range arc that causes any psychics used inside it by enemy to suffer POtW

Give the asp sorc lvl 2 and a gate-of-infinity style power.

 Makutsu wrote:
Make their guns AP2 and 3++

No. Still doesn't help that they die just as easily as normal SM for a vastly inflated cost.

Here's what could be done
- Lower the cost
- Allow Special/Heavy weapons, even if it's just a Flamer and Heavy Bolter
- Allow psychic powers other than the awful Tzeench ones
- Go back to 3rd Ed Thousand Sons and give them 2 wounds each

If you want to make minimal changes to at least get them close to their points cost I'd think the simplest way would be the following two changes:

1. Make the Aspiring Sorcerer Mastery Level 2. Now he has access to a buff power as well as gaining access to Breath of Chaos.

2. Add a "Sorcerer Commands" rule along the lines of "While a model with at least one Mastery Level and the Mark of Tzeentch is attached to this unit models in the unit replace Slow and Purposeful with Relentless." Now they can fire overwatch and run, but only so long as they can keep their Sorcerer alive.

 Valkyrie wrote:

 Makutsu wrote:
Make their guns AP2 and 3++

No. Still doesn't help that they die just as easily as normal SM for a vastly inflated cost.

Here's what could be done
- Lower the cost
- Allow Special/Heavy weapons, even if it's just a Flamer and Heavy Bolter
- Allow psychic powers other than the awful Tzeench ones
- Go back to 3rd Ed Thousand Sons and give them 2 wounds each

2W and ignores S4 and under. They had both had then.

That would require effort on GWs part.

I'd say give them Sigil of Corruption instead of Aura of Dark Glory (leave Sorcerer with Aura), which would give them a 3+ Invulnerable Save. Also allow the Aspiring Sorcerer to upgrade to Mastery Level 2 for a small points hike.

Then give them a special rule which makes the Fleshbane and Poisoned rules have no effect against them.

Also I agree, letting them at least have something like a heavy bolter would be a great addition.

If you really want them to be resilient to small arms like MoN units are, just have them re-roll failed *armor* save results of 1 and keep Aura of Dark Glory so only 5+ invulnerable save.

MoTz just needs to be changed somehow, like giving Hatred: Nurgle and re-roll failed psychic tests for psykers.

We can open a whole new can of worms and all have different opinions here, that's for sure.

Despite being supposedly MEQ hunters with their AP3, they don't really do very much damage for their points cost. Probably is a bit much, but making them Str5 would help. It's not like any other famously psychic Marines have some kind of +1Str psychic bolts. We could call them some sort of ludicrous pun to do with guns and the word "psychic".

Like everything Tzeentch in C:CSM, they need to be better, and they need to be more psychic. I am definitely a fan of the Aspiring Sorcerer suggestions here. In my first 6E game, I ran them and just assumed they were the same as in 5E, so I had my Aspiring Sorcerer with the Telekinesis Primaris, which was pretty fun.

Rubric marines
We 3
Bs4
S4
T4
I2
W2
A1
Ld10
Sv3+/4++
Wargear: bolters, bolt pistol, close combat weapon etc.
Special rules: all is dust: while the sorcerer is alive the unit may re roll all failed armour saves.
Deciple of the thousand sons: the units sorcerer is mastery level 2 (including tzeench bonus) and may select up to 2 power from and ONE of the rulebook disciplines or roll on the tzeench ones.
Upgrades: as per the chaos space marine squad.

My reasoning behind the changes is that tzeench should be able to take any discipline, Ts especially, this unit loses the ap3 rounds but gains wargear, I have not given them relentless as you can get it from a psy power as it should be

i am so happy to see so much love for the son's

i think the ap 3 is cool, but i would rather they be like 3rd edition, and just soak up small arms fire, so i want the 2w and the ignore str <5 and atleast a lvl2 sorc, maybe a lvl 2 with a free Tzeentch power(there god awful but its fluffy to have at least 1)

and sense they are described as "slow" or methodical, either relentless and no grenades or CCW and a lower I . or if we are going to go the "they move at normal speed" then theirs no reason they should not get the same load out as other marine, CCW grenades, and what not.

Well, a bunch of minor changes would help. Turning them into Legion of the Damned look-alikes would be a great start. Here's my suggestions:

1- Allow Heavy Bolters to be taken.
2- Inferno Bolts - Any bolt weapon (boltgun, combi-bolter, Heavy Bolter, autocannons) fired by a Thousand Sons model has the Ignores Cover rule. In addition, the AP of the weapon is lowered by 1.
3- 2 wounds.
4- Make Tzeentch's discipline not entirely witchfire powers. Apparently the god of change only likes it when people are on fire and doesn't like altering the battle at all.

 Brometheus wrote:
If you really want them to be resilient to small arms like MoN units are, just have them re-roll failed *armor* save results of 1 and keep Aura of Dark Glory so only 5+ invulnerable save.

MoTz just needs to be changed somehow, like giving Hatred: Nurgle and re-roll failed psychic tests for psykers.

We can open a whole new can of worms and all have different opinions here, that's for sure.

Plus one to this

Rubric Heldrake.

Relentless, 2 wounds and access to heavy/special weapons... Done. Only then, they would be worth The points.

I think they'd be fine if they were 20pts a model and taking away Slow and Purposeful.

Perhaps make the Sorceror a +10pt upgrade (in line with Warlocks) also.

Iranna.

I would be fine with SnP and re-rolling failed armor saves, actually. Makes them more powerful against non-ap3 weapons.