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Seems like a pretty easy situation to come across, but I couldn't find anything with search or in the FAQ.

What happens if a Scout character (normally entitled to a 12" scout) joins a unit that is say, infantry?

What happens if an infantry character joins a unit that has a 12" scout?

Does it matter if the character or the squad had scout?

In other words, how do you determine the type of a unit with mixed model types? It seems like GW never considered the possibility of mixed types inside of the same unit.

The first sentence of scout makes this perfectly clear

There are rules that have the "if at least one model in the unit" clause, wherein the rule then applies to all models in the unit, including those without the USR, rules that say "a unit composed entirely of models with *** " in which case all the models in the unit need the USR for it to work for any of them, and then those rules which apply specifically to models or weapons, like Smash etc.

No it doesn't. I know whether or not they get to scout (they do). What I'm asking is how far. I apologize if my op wasn't clear.

Do we use the unit's type or the character's type? Does it matter which has scout?

The units.
The character counts as a member of the unit for all rules purposes.
When making a scout move, you move the unit. Not models.

Just to clear it up, nothing actually moves during Scout. It is a redeployment.

Calling it a "Scout Move" is just a habit people have from 5th.

the unit type is a thing people have concocted up. Each model is classified on its own, the other models its with doesnt change that. Technically a model with a 12" move can indeed move 12" even if he/she is attached to a 6" unit, but is bound to 2" coherency so unless theyre jumping across the unit it doesnt mean anything.

I would assume multiple distance scouts would be the same. That one model that cant move more than 6" would be in the back while the rest are 8-12" ahead of it.

What is your justification for that in the rules?

 Vineheart01 wrote:
the unit type is a thing people have concocted up. Each model is classified on its own, the other models its with doesnt change that. Technically a model with a 12" move can indeed move 12" even if he/she is attached to a 6" unit, but is bound to 2" coherency so unless theyre jumping across the unit it doesnt mean anything.

I would assume multiple distance scouts would be the same. That one model that cant move more than 6" would be in the back while the rest are 8-12" ahead of it.

Scout redeployment is done on a unit basis. Not model basis. An IC that joins a unit becomes a member for all rules purposes. So he is bound to the units redeployment of 6inches. Additionally Scout redeployment is NOT movement. No way to apply movement rules to it.

Unit type is a messed up rule. Each model has its own unit type but that unit type is checked at the unit level. There is no instruction on how to handle units with mixed types and nothing that tells us a unit may only ever have one type. If an IC on a bike joins an infantry unit he does not loose relentless, the 12" move, or any of the other bike unit stuff.

Also, you don't need an IC for this problem to come up. What if I had a Kroot Carnivore squad with 10 Kroot (Infantry) and 10 Kroot (Beasts) Hounds in it and through some other mechanism this unit also had scout. What distance does unit use for the scout redeployment?

Seems to me the unit type should be checked on a model to model basis when there are mixed types in the unit. For the scout distance the unit may end out of of coherency, but that's ok as long as when they move they move towards being in coherency (unless part of the unit was an IC, then he can tell the rest to bugger off)

 DJGietzen wrote:
Unit type is a messed up rule. Each model has its own unit type but that unit type is checked at the unit level. There is no instruction on how to handle units with mixed types and nothing that tells us a unit may only ever have one type. If an IC on a bike joins an infantry unit he does not loose relentless, the 12" move, or any of the other bike unit stuff.

Also, you don't need an IC for this problem to come up. What if I had a Kroot Carnivore squad with 10 Kroot (Infantry) and 10 Kroot (Beasts) Hounds in it and through some other mechanism this unit also had scout. What distance does unit use for the scout redeployment?

Seems to me the unit type should be checked on a model to model basis when there are mixed types in the unit. For the scout distance the unit may end out of of coherency, but that's ok as long as when they move they move towards being in coherency (unless part of the unit was an IC, then he can tell the rest to bugger off)

This is exactly the conclusion that I had reached. I couldn't find anything on handling units with mixed types, and the rules about Independent Characters being a part of the squad don't apply to things like Kroot Hounds. I wanted to see if there was any consensus or rule I had missed, but it seems like there is not.

I feel like the method that makes the most sense is what you said as well (to prevent shenanigans like Scout'ing Infantry IC's joining Bike/Jump squads to get a 12" Scout redeployment for themselves) but the rules don't really say what happens, as far as I can tell.

No real consensus, aside from the agreement that the 'Unit Type' section of the book is the grossly misleading... but that is a rant I will avoid again.

 DJGietzen wrote:
Unit type is a messed up rule. Each model has its own unit type but that unit type is checked at the unit level. There is no instruction on how to handle units with mixed types and nothing that tells us a unit may only ever have one type. If an IC on a bike joins an infantry unit he does not loose relentless, the 12" move, or any of the other bike unit stuff.

Also, you don't need an IC for this problem to come up. What if I had a Kroot Carnivore squad with 10 Kroot (Infantry) and 10 Kroot (Beasts) Hounds in it and through some other mechanism this unit also had scout. What distance does unit use for the scout redeployment?

Seems to me the unit type should be checked on a model to model basis when there are mixed types in the unit. For the scout distance the unit may end out of of coherency, but that's ok as long as when they move they move towards being in coherency (unless part of the unit was an IC, then he can tell the rest to bugger off)

I agree with the exception of the IC bit. Once you initially deploy the IC with the unit it becomes a member of that unit for all rules purposes. The only times it is allowed to leave is in the movement phase or if all other models in the unit are destroyed.

The coherency rules are a little fuzzy. While coherency is mainly detailed in the movement phase - I believe this goes for any type of movement, placement etc. The coherency rules do detail a unit may end up out of coherency sometimes - but the examples seem to point to because of forces outside your control. I think you can not remove unit coherency by choice, at any time.

BRB page 3

This is detailed more fully in the movement section (See page 10) - for now, all you need to know is that every model in the unit must be within 2'' of at least one other model in the same unit

Emphasis not mine.

 Abandon wrote:
I agree with the exception of the IC bit. Once you initially deploy the IC with the unit it becomes a member of that unit for all rules purposes. The only times it is allowed to leave is in the movement phase or if all other models in the unit are destroyed.

Right, If you redeploy the IC out of coherency he is still 'part of the unit' until that IC's movement phase. At this point you need to decide if he is still in the unit, and if he is he must move towards restoring coherency. If he leaves the unit, he can move any way he wants.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nem wrote:
The coherency rules are a little fuzzy. While coherency is mainly detailed in the movement phase - I believe this goes for any type of movement, placement etc. The coherency rules do detail a unit may end up out of coherency sometimes - but the examples seem to point to because of forces outside your control. I think you can not remove unit coherency by choice, at any time.

BRB page 3

This is detailed more fully in the movement section (See page 10) - for now, all you need to know is that every model in the unit must be within 2'' of at least one other model in the same unit

Emphasis not mine.

The section you quoted only explains the requirements for a unit to be in coherency. During the movement phase we know that a model must move to be in coherency if it is out, but we are never told that a unit must remain in coherency at any other time.

 DJGietzen wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
I agree with the exception of the IC bit. Once you initially deploy the IC with the unit it becomes a member of that unit for all rules purposes. The only times it is allowed to leave is in the movement phase or if all other models in the unit are destroyed.

Right, If you redeploy the IC out of coherency he is still 'part of the unit' until that IC's movement phase. At this point you need to decide if he is still in the unit, and if he is he must move towards restoring coherency. If he leaves the unit, he can move any way he wants.

As the IC is still part of the unit it must be placed within unit coherency when they redeploy. Should, for any reason, the IC start his move joined to a unit but be out of coherency he must follow the rules for regaining coherency and move towards the rest of the unit, as must they moved towards the IC. They are one unit so this happens at the same time. If after that move the IC is still outside of coherency with the unit, he may then leave the unit.

 Abandon wrote:

As the IC is still part of the unit it must be placed within unit coherency when they redeploy.

Not true. The scout redeployment is not movement, and does not require any of the models in the unit to maintain unit coherency when they redeploy. Each model may be placed anywhere within the appropriate number of inches of its current position. Even if that apropriate number is 6" for ever model in the unit it is still 100% and 100% legal to end up with a unit out of coherency.

 Abandon wrote:
Should, for any reason, the IC start his move joined to a unit but be out of coherency he must follow the rules for regaining coherency and move towards the rest of the unit, as must they moved towards the IC. They are one unit so this happens at the same time. If after that move the IC is still outside of coherency with the unit, he may then leave the unit.

Also not true. If the IC is permitted to leave the unit it has joined it may do so at any time during the movement phase. Any move that ends with the IC no in unit coherency is enough to constitute leaving the unit. The IC could very well move away from his former unit, towards that unit, or stand still as long as his position at the end of his movement is out of coherency he may be treated as having left the unit. Nothing on page 39 tells us that an IC that finds itself out of coherency must leave the unit, so it is the player's choice if the IC is still in the unit but out of coherency. Because you may move the IC before you move the rest of his unit you can have him leave the unit before he forces that unit to march towards him in an attempt to regain coherency; you must move the IC 1st for this to be proper.

"An Independent Character can leave a unit during the Movement phase by moving out of unit coherency with it." BRB pg 39
"the models in the unit must be moved in such a way that they restore unit coherency (or get as close as possible to having I restored coherency)." BRB pg 11

If the IC starts its move outside of unit coherency it's move is dictated by the rules for restoring coherency. The IC has the option to 'move out of unit coherency' but to preform such an action it is necessary to be within unit coherency at the start of the move. You cannot move out of something you are not inside of. Even if that were not the case having the option of how you can move matters little when there is another rule mandating how you must move.

 Abandon wrote:
"An Independent Character can leave a unit during the Movement phase by moving out of unit coherency with it." BRB pg 39
"the models in the unit must be moved in such a way that they restore unit coherency (or get as close as possible to having I restored coherency)." BRB pg 11

If the IC starts its move outside of unit coherency it's move is dictated by the rules for restoring coherency.The IC has the option to 'move out of unit coherency' but to preform such an action it is necessary to be within unit coherency at the start of the move. You cannot move out of something you are not inside of.

A movement out of coherency is not a movement to leave coherency. Any move that results in you not being in coherency is a move out of coherency. You've made the assumption that you need to be in coherency in order to move out of it when in reality you only need to not be in coherency to be out of coherency. If I have two clocks that are out of sync, and I change one of them to a different time that is still out of sync I have made a change that is out of sync. I did not need to put the clocks in sync in order to do that.

 Abandon wrote:
Even if that were not the case having the option of how you can move matters little when there is another rule mandating how you must move.

He only MUST move that way if he remains part of the unit. If the choice to leave the unit did not override the rules for unit coherency and movement on page 11 then the 1st paragraph of those rules would prevent him from ever leaving the unit.

Considering the sentence structure and subject matter a better example is, 'move out of a room'. This indicates a defined or conceptualized area that is to be left. You cannot move out of a room if you are not within the room to begin with. Your example is based on 'out of sync', which indicates a relative state of being rather that a course of action involving movement and has different uses..

The IC per the rule I quoted, the IC cannot leave the unit until the end of it's movement at which point you check coherency and realize it is not within coherency distance of the unit and it has left said unit.

But being in coherency is a state of being/ a quality and not location. The sentence structure and subject matter does not denounce this interpretation and you have made a poor assumption that you must 1st move "into" coherency in order to move out of coherency. In reality you move in coherency, not move into coherency.

 DJGietzen wrote:
But being in coherency is a state of being/ a quality and not location.

Well as it does not tell you to 'be in' or 'be out' of coherency but instead to 'move out of coherency' it is indeed telling you to preform an action, not just be in a state.

 DJGietzen wrote:

The sentence structure and subject matter does not denounce this interpretation and you have made a poor assumption that you must 1st move "into" coherency in order to move out of coherency.

That is not an assumption. That is the proper interpretation of those words per the English language.

 DJGietzen wrote:

In reality you move in coherency, not move into coherency.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here as these two things are not exclusive to each other. Both are correctly phrased but they do not mean exactly the same thing.
-A unit is always required to move in coherency.
-A unit that is out of coherency is required to move into coherency.