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Despite specifically bringing up this possibility, I don't see anywhere in the codex that actually addresses two very real possibilities.

Codex: Inquisition Independent Character considers the Primary Detachment Battle Brothers, and the Allied Detachment Desperate Allies.

1) Can the C:I IC join a PD unit that has also been joined by a AD IC?

2) Can the C:I IC cast blessings on a PD unit that has also been joined by a AD IC?

In other words, how do you determine what a unit "counts as" when it comes from different books? I suppose this is also relevant to rules like Preferred Enemy as well.

While attached to a unit, an IC counts as a normal member of the unit. So if you had SM, Tau and Inquisitors, a Tac squad with attached Ethereal is still a SM Tac squad.

The Independent Character counts as a member of the joined unit for all rules purposes.

Furthermore, they do not treat the PD as BB and AD as DA. They treat each detachment as per the inquisitorial allies matrix.

 grendel083 wrote:
The Independent Character counts as a member of the joined unit for all rules purposes.

which INCLUDES, not excludes, the purpose of determining weather or not that unit can be joined by allied characters.

so BOTH the PD and the INQ detach must treat the allied detach as BB to have them all in one unit.

 Happyjew wrote:
Furthermore, they do not treat the PD as BB and AD as DA. They treat each detachment as per the inquisitorial allies matrix.

Which is what I meant in my original post. So you would say an inq could then join that tac squad?

The unit he wants to join hasn't changed its alignment no matter what ICs have joined it.

I have always thought the allies relationships work best when checked at the model level, not the unit. Codex Inquisition seems to agree with me. Since the BRB clearly handles the relationships at a unit level take that with a grain of salt.

1) The AD IC model that has already joined the PD unit will still treat the C:I IC as DA and can't be joined by DA. Becouse the AD IC is part of the PD unit for all rules purposes then the whole unit can't be joined by the C:I IC. Just becouse the AD IC has joined a PD unit does it stop being a model that makes up part of the AD.

2) Same thing. The AD IC joining the unit means that unit cannot be counted as a friendly unit for psychic powers.

So essentially, as far as the inquisitorial detachment is concerned it checks relationships at the model level, if a unit contains more then one relationship, use the worse relationship.

Is there any RAW that supports that though?

None, really.

Page 112 speaks only of 'units' under the heading of Battle Brothers.
"Battle Brothers are treated as friendly units from all points of view."
"...can be joined by allied Independent Characters".

Ricter wrote:
Is there any RAW that supports that though?

Only for the inquisitorial detachment.

Codex: Inquisition (Kindle Locations 1002-1003). wrote:Note that the Inquisitorial detachment may have a different relationship to the models from an army’s primary detachment, and the models that make up that army’s ‘regular’ allied detachment (assuming there are any).

Each model will have its own relationship with the inquisitorial detachment. Joining s unit in the primary detachment won't change an Independant Characters status as a model from the 'regular' allied detachment. If that model's relationship with the inquisitorial detachment does not let it be joined by independent characters in the inquisitorial detachment then as a member of the primary detachment unit it will also not allow the inquisitional independent character to join the unit.

Models aren't joined by other models though. Units are joined by IC.

If Inquisitorial unit X is joined by ally IC B, then if primary detachment IC A wants to join it is not joining B, it is checking whether it can join X.

 Shandara wrote:
Models aren't joined by other models though. Units are joined by IC.

If Inquisitorial unit X is joined by ally IC B, then if primary detachment IC A wants to join it is not joining B, it is checking whether it can join X.

IMHO, Unit X is comprised then of both the Allies status of original X, and the Allies status of B. B is now part of the unit, and checking the Unit status carry’s both ally’s status.

But I really see 'part of the unit' differently to most I believe. I see part of the unit, for all rules purposes to mean things like when blessings are cast on the unit, the IC is part of that unit. When shooting at the unit, the IC is part of the unit. When deciding special rules passed on to the unit, the IC is part of the unit, and when checking the unit's allied status the IC is part of that unit, meaning the unit has 2 allies status.

I don't believe part of the unit means to remove all attached rules the IC has. While allies checks are done for the most part against units, nothing suggests a unit can only carry one status, and the allies status is ultimately determined by detachment, not by the unit. I believe part of the unit for all rules purposes means for unit based checks to have to take into account the IC allies status.

Well, the rules don't support the 'hybrid' interpretation. Since they only say that 'for all rules purposes' the IC is part of the unit.

They do NOT mention any changes to the unit he joins at all.

 Shandara wrote:
Well, the rules don't support the 'hybrid' interpretation. Since they only say that 'for all rules purposes' the IC is part of the unit.

They do NOT mention any changes to the unit he joins at all.

If there were not any changes, then you could not also claim the IC can spread his unit dependant special rules to the rest of the unit.

He is either part of the unit (for ALL rule purposes) or not.

The sentance also doesn't mention removing every rule the IC carrys, and does not mention any changes to the IC, or that the model suddenly changes his alignment, he doesn't change wargear, codex, rules, weapons or model classification , it only says he is part of the unit. When determining Unit checks, interations and rules he is part of that unit. What detachment your from does not change when you join another unit. When you check allies status of a unit, the IC is a part of that unit, and his allied status must be taken into consideration.

The problem with interpretation in the oposite direction, is if an IC joins a unit of say DE warriors, I could claim he is now a warrior (for ALL rule purposes....) . He is only a part of the unit, he doesn't litterally take on all the rules immaginable of that unit.

Those special rules are worded differently. Usually they say:
"In a unit contains one or more models with..."

They are not dependent on the unit having the rule.

But I'll repeat:
When an IC joins a unit it does not change the unit at all. When checking allied status you check the unit, not the models in it. The unit has a fixed alignment which is not changed in any way whether or not ICs join or not.

If hybrid units were a thing, how would you determine which alignment to use? Random? Majority? All at the same time? I can not find any rules to support any of those options.

 Shandara wrote:
Those special rules are worded differently. Usually they say:
"In a unit contains one or more models with..."

They are not dependent on the unit having the rule.

But I'll repeat:
When an IC joins a unit it does not change the unit at all. When checking allied status you check the unit, not the models in it. The unit has a fixed alignment which is not changed in any way whether or not ICs join or not.

If hybrid units were a thing, how would you determine which alignment to use? Random? Majority? All at the same time? I can not find any rules to support any of those options.

Rules quote for the unit has a fixed alignment which can not change? Nothing suggests 'Allies' rule is passed throughout the unit, or is based on the unit. You check what you can and can not do based on the alignment of the unit, and nothing says that alignment is majority based, or the unit can not contain more that 1 possible alignment.

When an IC joins the unit, it also doesn't change the IC at all. Some rules transfer to the unit, and are based on what unit your in. Some rules are model based and do not transfer to the unit - but the IC doesn't lose them, Allies is detachment based, and the IC doesn't lose them.


You use all the alignment rules for that unit. The IC is part of that unit for all rules purposes, if your not taking into consideration his alignment when checking the unit, your not following those rules.

If he loses his allies rules, he should also lose any model based special rules, as niether determined by what unit you are in.

As my post above, if it did change the IC, he is now bound by the rules for DE warriors....

 Shandara wrote:
Models aren't joined by other models though. Units are joined by IC.

Irrellavent. The inquisitorial detahcment still has a relationship with 'models from a detachment' not units.

 Shandara wrote:

If Inquisitorial unit X is joined by ally IC B, then if primary detachment IC A wants to join it is not joining B, it is checking whether it can join X.

This is a bad example. Lets say in this example X is Inquisition, B is Space Marines, and A is Grey Knights. The Inquisition will allow any of the models from the Space Marine detachment to join it, and allow any of the modes from the Grey Knights to join it. The Grey Knights only have relationships with Space Marine units not models. Nothing would stop a Grey Knight from joining the Inquisition unit that has Space Marines models in it.

However. In a situation where an Inquisition IC has joined a Space Marine unit, and a Tau IC wants to join that unit there is a problem. The Tau IC has a relationship with the Space Marine unit but it also has a relationship with the Inquisition IC in that unit. The Inquisition IC can't be joined by any model in the Tau IC unit and since the Inquisition IC is a member of the Space Marine unit for all rules purposes that means the Space Marine unit cannot be joined by the Tau IC either.

 Shandara wrote:
Models aren't joined by other models though. Units are joined by IC.

I know DJ picked this bit out as well, but I do want to point out that IC is also a unit. If an IC is by himself he is still targetable as a unit.

 DJGietzen wrote:

 Shandara wrote:
Models aren't joined by other models though. Units are joined by IC.

Irrellavent. The inquisitorial detahcment still has a relationship with 'models from a detachment' not units.

 Shandara wrote:

If Inquisitorial unit X is joined by ally IC B, then if primary detachment IC A wants to join it is not joining B, it is checking whether it can join X.

This is a bad example. Lets say in this example X is Inquisition, B is Space Marines, and A is Grey Knights. The Inquisition will allow any of the models from the Space Marine detachment to join it, and allow any of the modes from the Grey Knights to join it. The Grey Knights only have relationships with Space Marine units not models. Nothing would stop a Grey Knight from joining the Inquisition unit that has Space Marines models in it.

However. In a situation where an Inquisition IC has joined a Space Marine unit, and a Tau IC wants to join that unit there is a problem. The Tau IC has a relationship with the Space Marine unit but it also has a relationship with the Inquisition IC in that unit. The Inquisition IC can't be joined by any model in the Tau IC unit and since the Inquisition IC is a member of the Space Marine unit for all rules purposes that means the Space Marine unit cannot be joined by the Tau IC either.

From a RAW perspective i have to agree with shandara. Wouldnt be the first time that the whole "becomes a member for all rule purposes" sentence in the IC rules is problematic. Until theres a faq that allows this i wouldnt play it that way though. 1 sentence in the ally rules of C:I wouldve settled a lot of problems. But ... jeah ...

Yeah, I was really excited when I saw that example about Tau, because it seemed like they were about to settle this cleanly one way or another, but then... nope.

So for rules like Preferred Enemy, does a joined IC then not apply? i.e. if your unit had PE(SM) and a SM IC joined an Imperial Guard blog, the rules would not allow you to claim PE(SM)?

Another interesting situation is that ICs are allowed to join other ICs. So in this case, would their unit "type" differ based on who joined whom?

HIWPI. We play it as if you have PE vs any model in the unit, you gain the benefits. Otherwise you have issues when you have 3 ICs from different factions join together. What unit is it ?

The original one that the others joined, as I read RAW.

delete

PE is worked out seemingly on a per model basis, rather than unit. Which was not so much of an issue before Inq. HIWPI is same as Fragile, to avoid slowing down. I guess RAW would be you start rolling it all out separately.

I think page 63 sums up the the rules laid out on 39 better than its predecessor,

Characters and Assaults;
Remember,a character that has joined a unit follows all the normal rules for being part of a unit. If the character is in a unit that charges into close combat, the character charges too, as it is part of the unit. If the character's unit is locked in close combat, he fights as part of the unit - either roll for him separately ......

That's a pretty good indicator on what they meant as part of a unit, and the rules for being part of the unit.

 Nem wrote:
PE is worked out seemingly on a per model basis, rather than unit. Which was not so much of an issue before Inq. HIWPI is same as Fragile, to avoid slowing down. I guess RAW would be you start rolling it all out separately.

I think page 63 sums up the the rules laid out on 39 better than its predecessor,

Characters and Assaults;
Remember,a character that has joined a unit follows all the normal rules for being part of a unit. If the character is in a unit that charges into close combat, the character charges too, as it is part of the unit. If the character's unit is locked in close combat, he fights as part of the unit - either roll for him separately ......

That's a pretty good indicator on what they meant as part of a unit, and the rules for being part of the unit.

just a quick side question
If IC XXX is a member of unit A for all rules purposes , does said IC retain or lose permissions to purchase/use wargear purchased when he was his own unit that the new unit does not have permission to acquire/use

No - list building is long over.

Inquisitor A joins Space Marines B.

Tau Commander C joins Space Marines B.

Everyone has joined a unit they are Battle Brothers with. No problems exist, except perhaps the fact that doesn't have the foresight to think past lunchtime.

What happens when all the Marines in that unit die then?

The world implodes. GW didn't think that far.