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I'm interested in the possibility of a high-modelcount footdar list, mostly just for friendly games. I know it's not gonna win any tournaments, but if I ran multiple blobs of 20 Guardians with heavy weapons, one or two Wraithknights to draw fire and provide counter-assault, some support batteries and maybe a few Warp Spiders and Striking Scorpions, possibly a Crimson Hunter and/or some Lynxes or other light vehicles for support, do you think this army could get anywhere? The Guardian blobs actually have pretty solid firepower and can harass assaulty units with battle focus and I could give them cover with Warlocks or terrain to improve the durability. An Avatar also seems like an obvious choice for the fearless bubble. I don't particularly want to ally with Dark Eldar if I can avoid it, this army is supposed to represent the sorrowful bands of Il-Kaithe after their fateful encounter with some Necrons.

The short range of guardians really hurts them. They need transports in order to get into effective range. If your opponent agrees not to take any artillery or blast template tanks or better yet agrees to field a similar list (say tactical marine heavy or guard foot platoon) you could have a good fun game.

Actually I have thought of doing something like this for a competitive list, and it is very very doable, and would be really really scary. you would lose wave serpents, but you would still have all the other tools to use, while you march 80 ish guardians up the table. In one way this is scarier for the opponent because they have to choose between killing elite infantry with higher armor (read: warp spiders) and get wrecked by guardians on turn 3. I creates a high pressure situation for them.

Here's a list that would actually be super viable:

HQ
Farseer on Jetbike with mantle (155)

Troops
4x:
20 Guardians with 2 BL (220 each) (880)
2x:
3 Jetbikes (51 each) (102)

FA
3x:
8 Warp Spiders (152 each) (456)

Heavy
Nightspinner with Crystal Targeting and Holofields (155)

The strategy is pretty straight forward... You march up the board with the guardians, always keeping them spread out to be careful of blasts, while you do this you fire 8 lances a turn and then fleet battle focus another ~4 inches on average for a total of 10" per turn movement. This puts you within killing distance after the battle focus on the second turn if you start far enough forward, and they can't move back. (10")+(10")= 20" +12" threat range = 32 inches. there is no way you won't be there by 3rd turn, and given how killy guardians are now, thats going to be a sad day. However while you're doing all of that you still got your spiders and nightspinner, which can't really be ignored. Because if you ignore them and focus on guardians, the spiders and spinner will wreck 2-4 units per turn. It just really messes with the other person's target priority. Probably super effective vs tau too, given how they like to marker light only 1-2 squads per turn usually.

Guardian blobs are definitely viable. The point made about their range is largely moot. Yes, they have 12' standrad range, but consider a few things;
Battlefocus gives you a larger kill range.
Heavy Weapons platforms extend the kill range of the squad.
Rapid Fire range is 12'' anyways, and catapults are MUCH more deadly than bolters due to Bladestorm.

Now I wouldn't be an advocate of 4x20 blobs with weapons. I would much prefer two 20 man blobs, backed up by some jetbikes and avengers.

wtnind's point about blast weapons is largely redundant. IG, Tau, Nids, Orks all take large lightly armoured troops on foot. Those troops can do just fine.

The biggest weakness (I find) with guardians is leadership. Now there's two good ways to buff this. The Avatar, for fearless guardians is a classic tactic, and the avatar scares people and provides a counter assault punch. Farseers. Those blobs can make a good bunker for a seer, gives them Ld10, guide/prescience those catapult shots, and can provide all sorts of other support. 40 guided catapult shots will scare the pants of someone on overwatch.

Other good units to field with these blobs would be some wraithknights/lords for some counter assault/tarpitting, vauls wrath (more guardians!), Swoopinghawks/spiders to hit their backfield, and compensate for the guardians short range.

Can't remember the tournament, but I know a large tourney was won by an Eldar player with 2x20 man guardian blobs, with farseers in each.

In theory the above list is scary, and it would be if your opponent came ill-prepared for the Guardians. But you have to consider that different guns are going to be directed at each target. You have one tank, so all AT guns are pointed at that without exception. The warp spiders are going to draw plasmagun fire. The guardians are going to get hammered by every anti-infantry gun that exists. Even bolters will shred right through them.

They have a 5+ save, correct? So out of ten marines, let's assume a special weapon. Nine bolters firing at them kills four guardians at 24''. You'd then need a 6'' trance with the guardians to close the distance before losing another four to the same squad, which forces leadership. Low LD Guardians crumple at that, which is another glaring weakness. Avatars work wonders to mend that though.

Which doesn't even look at Thunderfire Cannons, Manticores, Eradicator tanks, heavy bolters, submunition Hammerhead fire (or Ionhead even), Baledrakes... the list goes on.

It's not an inherently bad idea, but the number of weapons effective against it is pretty big.

Court of the Young King with footdar Guardian Spam. Good old Third Edition. It's terrible and not viable against any competitive list, but sure fun to play.

It's not exactly a Guardian horde list, but Darkwynn's Feast of Blades winning Eldar list had 2x20 Guardians with Brightlances with a Farseer in each for buffs, so there's definitely something in it, it just has to be supported correctly. The idea is that you throw in enough other big threats and hopefully get to toss around enough Forewarning that the Guardian blobs aren't worth targeting.

From personal experience, I've ran the similar at 1500, backed up by two Wave Serpents and two Fire Prisms and it went pretty damn well. It's worth noting that guardians, because of Battle Focus, are basically as fast a Jump Infantry, so they reach mid-field pretty damn rapidly, from there 20 bodies with a 4++ and 40 bs4 with rerolls rending shots is just horrifying to deal with.

I have to go with Belly on this. Leadership is the weakness of Guardians and to make them viable is to make them not run after being shot. I think the Avatar is not as valid of a choice as a HQ because of the 5++ save. If you run him, you have to have a Farseer or Eldrad to try to keep him alive. He can't join a unit so he will just get pounded on by Lascannon shots till he dies otherwise. At that point, why not do two Farseers with two Warlocks in two blobs of 20?

Look at high shot value platforms (scatter and Shuri cannons) because you want to be shooting at infantry, not vehicles that your catapults will not effect. Keep some Dark Reapers or Bright Lance Guardians in the rear for anti-armor to pop them so your advancing blobs can target any troops inside. Warlocks for every unit to increase that Ld is still a must, IMO. Conceal on the campers and take a roll for the attackers (can always fall back on Conceal). Mixing in a Striking Scorp or Clown CC unit isn't a bad plan either, special since they can ignore terrain. Keep them behind to bail you out of combat or to charge in and finish off a unit.

If you want to be a hardcore Guardian guy, take Storm Guardians and either use them as you would use the Scorps and Clowns (now you want something besides Conceal on your Warlock). For this purpose I would keep them in 10 man squads, and look at the PS upgrades if your using them as counter assault. If you want them to be up front, put them in 20 man blobs and put your Farseer in them. Follow them with your shooty Guardians with Starcannons or EMLs to give them the versatility to fire on transports or troops. Of course this means you still need BL Guardians or other units in the rear that can deal with AV 14 at range. The really nice thing about Storm Guardians is the Fusion Guns and Flamers that normal Guardians can't get. You can use them as mini Fire Dragons. The bad thing is your losing out on the Catapults. That is why I think a mix of Guardians and Storm Guardians can work, specially with Battle Focus.

Eldar, no matter what units you use, still have to be supported. I can easily see a list with 6 Guardian troop choices and have 3 different rolls given out to cover weaknesses. Storm Guardians with Fusion guns or Flamers for Counter assault/assault. Attacking Guardians with Starcannon/EML platforms to take out infantry and BL Guardians sitting in the rear targeting AV 14. I can easily see the Guardians in 20 man blobs and the Storms in 10-20 man blobs, all with Warlocks and two Farseers. After that point, mix in heavy and Elites to round out your list or to focus on a particular aspect (assault/gunline).

I think since your probably looking at a attacking list versus a gunline (due to the range of the Catapults), your Elite choices might reflect this. Clowns, and Scorps are all very maneuverable and hard hitting. For Fast slots I can see Spiders and Hawks fitting a list like this better than any vehicles. Just be careful to not blow to many points on them, because it will turn them into the focus of your list, not the Guardians. Heavy support is in the same boat really, but I think this is what you will want to buy after troops and HQ. Since you want to do footdar, we can ignore the vehicles. We will have plenty of psykers out there for wraithlords, but I find they have the same problems the Avatar does, but even worse without a Invul save. They are still excellent fire support platforms, so it is up to you as the player. I honestly think 2 squads of War Walkers Scouting up the flanks and maybe a Dark Reaper or Artillery unit in the middle to give you long range firepower to augment your BL Guardians might work best. Put them behind a ADL and fire away. And I really would look at a ADL for this list, specially if you do get Dark Reapers so the Exarch can man the weapon. You will need AA incase you face a Helldrake, because that is the worse thing a list like this can face. I would seriously consider a Icarus Lascannon and give your Exarch a cheaper weapon to fire incase he uses Intercept.

I could see a Guardian list tweeked out right to be very competitive in a Tourney, much less a friendly game. Good luck!

A full on wall of Guardians and little else? No. They'll die in their droves and be too limited in maneuverability and ranged firepower. (IMO). But a demi-horde, say a couple of full twenty units? Definitely useful. Definitely get the weapons platforms with them. Honestly, all of the weapons platforms are nice for their points. Even the humble Shuriken Cannon is good for its points (a little extra range so you're at least doing something and it is an assault weapon). Scatter Laser is lovely and EML is not to be underestimated though I wince every time I spend the points for it.

A unit of 20 Guardians with these weapons are modest, but they're scoring, can soak some damage and once they close can provide the "hail of fire" you need for taking down those invulnerable save / re-roll enemies.

I actually spring the extra for a Warlock to lead each unit. Sure, it's a few points, but there's no Runes of Battle power that isn't good with the Guardians. Well, I suppose Enhance/Drain and Empower/Enervate are not much use if you're not Storm Guardians, but then just swap it out for the Primaris power which is nice in and of itself. Plus you have a champion if charged. He may not be great but he's got a weapon with Armourbane and Fleshbane which ain't bad.

I also have to vent my frustration that the Avatar can't join units.

Anyway, my thoughts. I personally wouldn't bother with Storm Guardians, however.

knas ser wrote:

I also have to vent my frustration that the Avatar can't join units.

It's probably done for balance reasons, if MC could join regular units then it would make them even more broken (they are effectively replacing walkers and are already twice as durable). Imagine a keeper of secrets in a blob of 10/20 daemonettes! now that would be overpowered.

I suppose 6 units of 20 with weapons platforms and an Avatar to make them fearless could be unpleasant`

wtnind wrote:

knas ser wrote:

I also have to vent my frustration that the Avatar can't join units.

It's probably done for balance reasons, if MC could join regular units then it would make them even more broken (they are effectively replacing walkers and are already twice as durable). Imagine a keeper of secrets in a blob of 10/20 daemonettes! now that would be overpowered.

Oh I know if the Avatar could join units it would be overpowered... But what you need to understand, is that I am an Eldar player.

As it is the bubble fearless effect he gives is a bit too good IMHO and I'm also an Eldar player!

I cant remember the list but a gentleman won a invitational this year which focused around 2 20-man guardian blobs with seers attached.

My opinion is that anything more than 2 groups of 20 is really pushing it.

I wouldn't base a whole army around it but, even in a 1500pt match the following unit can pose a threat:

Farseer:
- Hope for that 4++ power, the force re-roll successful saves malediction, or the dream stack; both.
- Shard of Anaris for Fearless.

20 x Guardians:
- 2 x StarCannons so you can AP2 while you AP2.

Mind you, Guardians die easily no matter what. I find this to be the perfect balance between mulch bodies to pts percent of an army. Roughly 360 (forgot StarCannon cost), and 140 of those pts I always use anyway

I wouldn't recommend the Avatar - Blob at less than 2,000 pts not because they die easy but, because then that's one Farseer force multiplier (or Spiritseer at least for WraithTroops) that you are -not- taking.

Might I suggest if you have them:
Shard of Anaris Farseer + 9x Jetbikes + Warlock? They get around fast, can buff who they need to, have at least decent armor, jink, innate twin-linked all at like the same 360ish pts.