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Trying to get some feedback on how this should be properly handled, using a CSM Daemon Prince with Doombolt ( S8 AP1 ) and a unit of consisting of eight T3 multi 3 wound models ... assuming for the example that the first six hits score wounds, and any applicable saves are failed = does the Doombolt maintain its S8 profile thus inflicting ID on six models ?.. or would the power diminish for ID purposes, thus only three models would be removed for ID and then a fourth because of the three remaining unsaved wounds ?

Not sure why you thinkit would drop from being S8. Its S8 for all wounds

As a beam it's Strength drops by one after each hit (BRB page 69 - Beam, second para). So the fifth model hit would be hit by a Str 5 hit, the sixth a Str 4 hit.

Honestly, I don't agree with Nos on this one (which probably means I'm wrong).

Nope, I'm wrong. Silly me for not checking rules first

You work out id on each wound, so by the fourth hit is less than twice toughness, so no id

And that is why I am curious ... Doombolt has a profile of S8 AP1 Beam, so when rolling to wound the first model hit would be resolved at S8, the second at S7, the third at S6, and continues until the strength of the beam is reduced to zero (or in general if there are no other models that can be hit)

So the question rests on whether or not the Psychic Power maintains its original S8 profile for ID purposes ... or do you take into account which individual Strength X hit caused a wound ?

I believe you may have a point. The attack has the strength 8 as part of it's profile, and therefore inflicts instant death on anything with a toughness of 4 or lower. The rule on page 16 doesn't indicate that you verify the strength of the 'hit' (so the reduction inherent in the beam USR can come into play) but the strength of the attack itself. (which is 8, as per it's profile).

So, instant deaths for everyone! (well, any of them that fail an increasingly easier toughness test anyway)

 toxic_wisdom wrote:
And that is why I am curious ... Doombolt has a profile of S8 AP1 Beam, so when rolling to wound the first model hit would be resolved at S8, the second at S7, the third at S6, and continues until the strength of the beam is reduced to zero (or in general if there are no other models that can be hit)

So the question rests on whether or not the Psychic Power maintains its original S8 profile for ID purposes ... or do you take into account which individual Strength X hit caused a wound ?

You take the individual strenghts, since you need them to roll to wound too.
For wounds allocation your power caused a S8 hit, a S7 one,S6, S5... They'd each be their own wound pool sub-division, so the prince owner would allocate each one in the order he chooses (to me it'd make sense to go decreasing but not RAW) , you'd then see if the hit allocated causes an ID or not, depending on the toughness of the model taking the wound.
EDIT: From the beam's wording it seems to me that individual models suffer different strength hits, so the allocation would indeed depend on the model's position regarding to the psyker (the closer the stronger the hit)




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Neorealist wrote:
I believe you may have a point. The attack has the strength 8 as part of it's profile, and therefore inflicts instant death on anything with a toughness of 4 or lower. The rule on page 16 doesn't indicate that you verify the strength of the 'hit' (so the reduction inherent in the beam USR can come into play) but the strength of the attack itself. (which is 8, as per it's profile).

So, instant deaths for everyone! (well, any of them that fail an increasingly easier toughness test anyway)

I'm sorry but what? What is it you're saying with toughness tests?

I was referring to Rolls to Wound when I said 'toughness tests'. They done thusly: "...compare the weapon's Strength characteristic with the target's Toughness characteristic using the To Wound chart..."

You are also told that the closest model suffers a hit with the Beam's strength , then the 2nd closest suffers a hit beam's strength -1 and so on. The strength of this is varying

B0B MaRIEy has it correct.

the beam itself does not have the instant Death USR (p38) so we revert to the normal instant death rules on p16

each hit is resolved seperatly in accordance with the wound pool, it would imo be easier to resolve this as you go along since each hit is different in strength and with that possibly effect.

the wording would also imply that you are to resolve each hit as you go, since it wouldn't make sense on how the beam operates to generate a wound pool since you could by the wound pool rules start at the lowest strength and work your way up....but that could just be the way I read and play it and not enforced strictly RAW

"If a model suffers an unsaved Wound from an Attack that has a Strength value of double its Toughness value or greater (after modifiers), it is reduced to 0 Wounds and removed as a casualty." BRB page 16, Instant Death

The question essentially boils down to: Is the attacks strength based on the strength of the hit or the strength value listed on the attacks profile?

 Abandon wrote:
"If a model suffers an unsaved Wound from an Attack that has a Strength value of double its Toughness value or greater (after modifiers), it is reduced to 0 Wounds and removed as a casualty." BRB page 16, Instant Death

The question essentially boils down to: Is the attacks strength based on the strength of the hit or the strength value listed on the attacks profile?

So a space marine with a power fist does not inflict instant death on T4 models?

This line of thinking is over complicating the issue. Use the final strength value (Ie: after modifiers) to determine instant death.

The rules for instant death on p16 state "(after modifiers)".

Toxium wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
"If a model suffers an unsaved Wound from an Attack that has a Strength value of double its Toughness value or greater (after modifiers), it is reduced to 0 Wounds and removed as a casualty." BRB page 16, Instant Death

The question essentially boils down to: Is the attacks strength based on the strength of the hit or the strength value listed on the attacks profile?

So a space marine with a power fist does not inflict instant death on T4 models?

This line of thinking is over complicating the issue. Use the final strength value (Ie: after modifiers) to determine instant death.

The rules for instant death on p16 state "(after modifiers)".

I'm not taking sides in this as of yet, just clarifying what seems to be the primary question. In this case it seems the strength of the attack differs from the strength of the individual hits it creates. ID does not mention the hits, only the attack which can definitely be said to be S8 as it is plainly listed on the profile. Any models wounded by it can then be said to have been wounded by a S8 attack.

It can also be said as you pointed out, that a hit is just the next stage of the attack and that the strength of the hit is a modified value for the strength of that attack.

So I rephrase, is the strength of the hit a modified strength for the attack or does the strength of the attack remain the same even if individual hits for it may have a different value?

Either way please site a rule supporting one side or the other.

Wound pools have a STR value associated with them, and that's the STR used to calculate ID.

Unless you think that a single melta fired with a bunch of bolters causes all the bolters to ID T4 models...

 Abandon wrote:
Either way please site a rule supporting one side or the other.

Instant Death (p.16)
"If a model suffers an unsaved wound from an attack that has a strength value of double its toughness or greater (after modifiers), it is reduced to 0 wounds."

Beam (p.69)
"The beam then hits the next closest model under the line, but its strength is reduced by 1"

For ID to apply to all models hit, the ID rule would have state base strength or contain the phrase "without modifiers".

ID is resolved at the modifed str of the beam, trust me it is a pain espically when I ran 4 heralds 3 having bolt of change, taking out drones with the lower str wounds first then allocating the higher str for the broadsides to ID them.

It's the str at which it's modified too per target.
If you claim it's profile then things like iron arm and monofilament all of a sudden change as well.

If you ignore the -1 one then the rules for all weapons outside the profile can be ignored. Sub rules are its profile as well basically. Hence the quick reference sections are just that quick but usually still list it's special attributed in the profile.

MarkyMark wrote:
ID is resolved at the modifed str of the beam, trust me it is a pain espically when I ran 4 heralds 3 having bolt of change, taking out drones with the lower str wounds first then allocating the higher str for the broadsides to ID them.

The STR of the hit on the model is determined by the location of the model in the line, not by wound allocation. Beams hit models not units, therefore the drones would take the first hits at the higher S and the Broadsides would take the hits at the lower S.

Toxium wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
Either way please site a rule supporting one side or the other.

Instant Death (p.16)
"If a model suffers an unsaved wound from an attack that has a strength value of double its toughness or greater (after modifiers), it is reduced to 0 wounds."

Beam (p.69)
"The beam then hits the next closest model under the line, but its strength is reduced by 1"

For ID to apply to all models hit, the ID rule would have state base strength or contain the phrase "without modifiers".

(Emphasis mine)

After rereading the rules involved, I agree the line on pg 69 satisfies that it is the strength of the attack that is modified and not just the strength of the individual hits. As such I will side with no ID after the first three hits in the example.

Fragile wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:
ID is resolved at the modifed str of the beam, trust me it is a pain espically when I ran 4 heralds 3 having bolt of change, taking out drones with the lower str wounds first then allocating the higher str for the broadsides to ID them.

The STR of the hit on the model is determined by the location of the model in the line, not by wound allocation. Beams hit models not units, therefore the drones would take the first hits at the higher S and the Broadsides would take the hits at the lower S.

At what point are we told to ignore the wound allocation method as stated in the shooting section? which section describes this different wound allocation?.

Checking the Beam power it says hits only. Mentions nothing about wound allocation. Are you trying to say that beam bypasses the closet first and wound pools?

It does say that models take hits whatever the strength , not units. If JotWW can snipe, why couldn't this one?
I'd still play it as regular allocation personally, but there's something odd to it

RAW it is normal wound allocation and all the other gubbins that go with it, but personally it feels wrong to play it that way, even more so on the basis of how the beam works.

I play it by resolving the hits as I go, makes me feel less dirty but I'm not advocating others to do so.

The rule states that the model under the line takes a hit, not unit. Note this is completely different than say the Necron Death Ray, where the unit takes a number of hits equal to the number of models under the line.

Hits not wounds. JOTWW does not cause wounds so does not need to follow wound allocation process. There is nothing to say beam weapons that causes wounds do not follow wound allocation either.

If hitting a model means absolutely nothing different from hitting its unit, why is the distinction even there?

Because hitting a unit with a beam type weapon would mean one hit?. Not sure what your question means?.