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There is an upcoming tournament this month that I am going to try and attend with my Flying Circus. Trouble is at this level my troops, 3 units of horrors starting in my current list, seems a bit light. I know Scrir's Gaze helps that out, but I cannot guarantee it. So I'm looking for thoughts, ideas, helpful advice, etc to give me the best advantage I can.

That's just a weakness of a FMC list. You're spending at least 50% of your army (maybe 70%+) on big, scary threats. 3 troops is pretty standard. Try to take out their troops and/or threats to your troops.

You could (and probably should) take the Portalglyph. This gives you a solid chance of bringing 4-5 troops.

You could try using Fateweaver's warlord trait aggressively - try to roll for double 6's (generate a new unit of troops).

You could ally in CSM. A Black Mace Daemon Prince or the new Be'Lakor are both good choices, plus you can get 2 extra troops for a mere 100 points (cultists).

I'm already doing the first two take out the enemy troops/threats an the portal. They are simply no brainers, IMHO, for the Circus. Tend to be timid with the warp storm as it can hurt me greatly depending on the rolls, but perhaps I can try branching out more there. Anyone know the math for it off hand, like the chances it screws me over? On the last however cultists I don't feel are worth it most of the time as they evaporate. Maybe most experience something else, but mine just get killed early in every game.

I keep seeing people on the internetz suggest 10man units of cultists.

In practice, however, I like watching people hold them in Reserves when objectives are nowhere near the board edge they arrive from. Alternatively, they get slaughtered by 5 scouts or something.

I recommend two units of 15-19 Horrors with a FMC list.

There is an upcoming tournament this month that I am going to try and attend with my Flying Circus. Trouble is at this level my troops, 3 units of horrors starting in my current list, seems a bit light. I know Scrir's Gaze helps that out, but I cannot guarantee it. So I'm looking for thoughts, ideas, helpful advice, etc to give me the best advantage I can.

I don't think you can afford more than three units of troops in FMC. Honestly, I'd consider two and a Portylglyph (saves at least 60 points). If you are playing the list correctly, you have FMCs flying on and off the board. As such, they should be alive to contest end game. Therefore, you only really need to win by one objective.

 JGrand wrote:
I don't think you can afford more than three units of troops in FMC. Honestly, I'd consider two and a Portylglyph (saves at least 60 points). If you are playing the list correctly, you have FMCs flying on and off the board. As such, they should be alive to contest end game. Therefore, you only really need to win by one objective.

Does that work on a competitive level?

Does that work on a competitive level?

Absolutely. FMC isn't easy to play--it is a finesse army. However, if you have Fateweaver and a combination of three more FMCs, it is possible to become very durable. The trick is to roll for Invisibility. Against most armies, the combination of Mark of Tzeentch and Invisibility makes a FMC nigh unkillable. You can also do thinks like hitting Fatey with the Grimiore and subsequently flying the rest of the FMCs off the board, leaving one flying creature with a 2++ re-roll.

In fact, I don't think that FMCs should come down from the air often, and some games not at all. Flying Circus doesn't play to table--it plays to win the game via objectives. I play frequently with a Nova Invitational player who runs a FMC list. No matter how little he has left, it seems he is never out of a game. He also starts with only two units of Daemon troops and 10 Cultists.

Like I said, it isn't an easy army to play. However, I do think that Daemons are just behind Tau and Eldar in power level based on the tricks they can pull. Much like anything else, competitive Daemons start with a good list though.

 JGrand wrote:
In fact, I don't think that FMCs should come down from the air often, and some games not at all. Flying Circus doesn't play to table--it plays to win the game via objectives. I play frequently with a Nova Invitational player who runs a FMC list. No matter how little he has left, it seems he is never out of a game. He also starts with only two units of Daemon troops and 10 Cultists.

Like I said, it isn't an easy army to play. However, I do think that Daemons are just behind Tau and Eldar in power level based on the tricks they can pull. Much like anything else, competitive Daemons start with a good list though.

Yeah, I've heard of people (maybe the same guy you're referring to) flying their circus on and off the board. It's the ultimate meta buster, as it's not just bringing a good all-comers answer to the table, it's playing a totally different game than the rest of the lists. It also makes for a horrible game, as anyone who's tried it after hearing about it has found. It's not breaking any game rules...just the social contract that we sign with one another when we decide to stand in each other's company for 2+ hours and breath the same air without stinking up the place with horrible gamesmanship.

Yes, all's fair when it comes to war, especially in tournies, but wow, that's gotta be a boring set of games to take to the table. What makes it worse is that Chaos Daemons ARE one of the top teir armies even without reserve shinanigans. Someone playing the Flying Circus with this tactic in mind should just slap his opponent before the game starts...it'll be the least frustrating thing that happens to him until the game is over.

@Voidwraith: One of my usually opponents is Ovesastar Tau, Mechdar, and soon Jetseer. I don't think anything I do as the demons is going to ruin anyones games.

That said I am well aware that this isn't something for fun, merely a tournament build. Its why I keep my turkeyless Chaos Marines for such occasions.

Belakor is auto include, for invis. I find having a unit that shoots is much better than one that stand around twiddling thumbs, IE Pink Horrors instead of plagues.

Get the Portaglyph as well as Grimoire.

Is Belakor an auto include? I have yet to see his new rules, only hearsay, but I would imagine he has to be an HQ and thus I am slightly loath to imagine dropping my LoC.

@jy2: Your battlereports have been most helpful to watch and read through.

 arinnoor wrote:
Is Belakor an auto include? I have yet to see his new rules, only hearsay, but I would imagine he has to be an HQ and thus I am slightly loath to imagine dropping my LoC.

@jy2: Your battlereports have been most helpful to watch and read through.

I'm not sure he's an auto-take, but he should be part of a CSM detachment if you take him (otherwise, he displaces Fatey as your Warlord, which would be a bad thing). Instead of taking a Lord of Change's spot, he'll be taking the place of one of your heavy support deamon princes.

Yeah, I've heard of people (maybe the same guy you're referring to) flying their circus on and off the board. It's the ultimate meta buster, as it's not just bringing a good all-comers answer to the table, it's playing a totally different game than the rest of the lists. It also makes for a horrible game, as anyone who's tried it after hearing about it has found. It's not breaking any game rules...just the social contract that we sign with one another when we decide to stand in each other's company for 2+ hours and breath the same air without stinking up the place with horrible gamesmanship.

Re-rollable 2+ saves are undoubtedly bad for the game. However, I'd argue that the flying circus is harder to play well than things like Tau or Eldar.

Yes, all's fair when it comes to war, especially in tournies, but wow, that's gotta be a boring set of games to take to the table. What makes it worse is that Chaos Daemons ARE one of the top teir armies even without reserve shinanigans. Someone playing the Flying Circus with this tactic in mind should just slap his opponent before the game starts...it'll be the least frustrating thing that happens to him until the game is over.

It sorta depends. While it isn't an insta-win, I've found that my Eldar with 4-5 Serpents and 2 Wraithknights are a pretty hard counter to Flying Circus. Once a FMC drops, it either gets torrented down or insta killed by st 10. However, I do understand that not every army has the Ignore Cover that Tau/Eldar do.

All that being said, I respect good FMC players alot more than I respect people who run things like Seer Council and Screamerstar. While these lists can be dull for opponents, as they often don't engage the enemy and can be nigh unkillable, FMC is the most vulnerable of the three. However, I realize that all can be a bit slimy. It sucks to have games in which stuff doesn't die, despite buckets off dice getting thrown at them. This is, unfortunately, a major question of balance in competitive 40k right now.

I actually think playing with and against the circus is extremely fun. Yes, I will fly off the board a lot, but that's not all I do. I'm also trying to create weak points to to exploit and break. And regardless at the end of the game I will be on the board, attempting to stand on objectives (well technically fly over). The best Daemon players, imo, don't solely play asymmetrically (that is, fly off and on the board and do nothing else) but also engage in symmetrical game play when it suits them, and are capable of switching between the two as it suits them.

What this ends up creating is a game that resembles chess more than standard 40k, with both players being forced to think several turns ahead. Example "I know I'm landing Fateweaver on this objective at the end of the game, to ensure that happens I need him coming off the board on turn 4, which in turn means I have to emplace him in this area on turn 3, while I'm there I want to shoot at the rear armor of Wave Serpent 1, which means I need to draw that Wave Serpent over with my Tzeentch Prince, who will be coming onto the board" etc etc

Obviously both players will have their plans interfered with, but those games, although different than your standard "line up and shoot at each other" that other Armies play, are incredibly fun. When my Circus goes up against a good player, it's a blast.

JGrand was present for one of my favorite Circus games, where I played his ATC teammate in a super fun game of move/counter move (although I played it a little more symmetrically than I have learned to do now, the standard Daemon tricks of leaving the board were certainly present)

I actually think playing with and against the circus is extremely fun. Yes, I will fly off the board a lot, but that's not all I do. I'm also trying to create weak points to to exploit and break. And regardless at the end of the game I will be on the board, attempting to stand on objectives (well technically fly over). The best Daemon players, imo, don't solely play asymmetrically (that is, fly off and on the board and do nothing else) but also engage in symmetrical game play when it suits them, and are capable of switching between the two as it suits them.

What this ends up creating is a game that resembles chess more than standard 40k, with both players being forced to think several turns ahead. Example "I know I'm landing Fateweaver on this objective at the end of the game, to ensure that happens I need him coming off the board on turn 4, which in turn means I have to emplace him in this area on turn 3, while I'm there I want to shoot at the rear armor of Wave Serpent 1, which means I need to draw that Wave Serpent over with my Tzeentch Prince, who will be coming onto the board" etc etc

Obviously both players will have their plans interfered with, but those games, although different than your standard "line up and shoot at each other" that other Armies play, are incredibly fun. When my Circus goes up against a good player, it's a blast.

JGrand was present for one of my favorite Circus games, where I played his ATC teammate in a super fun game of move/counter move (although I played it a little more symmetrically than I have learned to do now, the standard Daemon tricks of leaving the board were certainly present)

I completely agree with you. I do remember that you played a great game against our team. The thing that makes the list much more fair than Seers/Screamers is that the counters to it are a bit more common. Eldar/Tau are still an uphill battle for FMC, so players have to be smart to win those battles. As such, I respect good FMC players a whole lot. The 2++ re-roll on Fatey is great, but it can be disrupted easily. The list is cool in that it does play so differently than others. A good player can use some neat tricks to stay in just about any game. But they are very, very hard to master.

I don't have any issue playing against Chaos Daemons or a Flying Circus. In fact, it's the army I play against the most. I was speaking solely on what I understood to be a cheap, gamey tactic (the flying on and off the board thing) that I heard about listening to a 40K podcast where everyone seemed to agree that it could be effective, but also made for a bad game. At least that's how I remember the conversation going. I'm totally capable of being wrong...on all kinds of levels.

Either way, Chaos Daemons and their FMC are pretty boss in general.

 JGrand wrote:

I actually think playing with and against the circus is extremely fun. Yes, I will fly off the board a lot, but that's not all I do. I'm also trying to create weak points to to exploit and break. And regardless at the end of the game I will be on the board, attempting to stand on objectives (well technically fly over). The best Daemon players, imo, don't solely play asymmetrically (that is, fly off and on the board and do nothing else) but also engage in symmetrical game play when it suits them, and are capable of switching between the two as it suits them.

What this ends up creating is a game that resembles chess more than standard 40k, with both players being forced to think several turns ahead. Example "I know I'm landing Fateweaver on this objective at the end of the game, to ensure that happens I need him coming off the board on turn 4, which in turn means I have to emplace him in this area on turn 3, while I'm there I want to shoot at the rear armor of Wave Serpent 1, which means I need to draw that Wave Serpent over with my Tzeentch Prince, who will be coming onto the board" etc etc

Obviously both players will have their plans interfered with, but those games, although different than your standard "line up and shoot at each other" that other Armies play, are incredibly fun. When my Circus goes up against a good player, it's a blast.

JGrand was present for one of my favorite Circus games, where I played his ATC teammate in a super fun game of move/counter move (although I played it a little more symmetrically than I have learned to do now, the standard Daemon tricks of leaving the board were certainly present)

I completely agree with you. I do remember that you played a great game against our team. The thing that makes the list much more fair than Seers/Screamers is that the counters to it are a bit more common. Eldar/Tau are still an uphill battle for FMC, so players have to be smart to win those battles. As such, I respect good FMC players a whole lot. The 2++ re-roll on Fatey is great, but it can be disrupted easily. The list is cool in that it does play so differently than others. A good player can use some neat tricks to stay in just about any game. But they are very, very hard to master.

Haha, let's just say Kurt and I have very different memories of the value of scoring Drakes =)

You on the other hand put our Ork player so far into the ground I'm not sure he's recovered yet. He was a last minute replacement, you bully!

I definitely agree Eldar are the worst matchup for FMC builds, but with a good amount of LOS blocking most Tau builds struggle to catch and kill the Daemons. The majority of Tau builds just lack the mobility to come out and play if they can't just annihilate you from their side of the table. (Ovesa Star excluded).

Sample list:

Lord of Change, Grimoire, Lvl 3, 285
Lord of Change, Portaglyph, 260

Fateweaver isn't as good in a FMC list as Lords of Change, especially since you need everyone to assault.

Plaguebearers, Icon 100
Plaguebearers, Icon 100

Pink horrors are only useful in units larger than 15. Icon gives them FNP, for a 2+ cover save in ruins.

Daemon Prince, Tzeentch, Wings, Lvl 1 235
Daemon Prince, Tzeentch, Wings, Lvl 1 235
Daemon Prince, Tzeentch, Wings, Lvl 1 235

While lvl 1 might not be too impressive, having three is better than two with lvl 3 in my experience.

Allied CSM

Belakor 350

Full telepathy and other shenanigans means he's auto include. Pop the Grimoire on him for a 2+ invuln and use him to spearhead your charge; Cast invisibility on the Grimoire holder for a 2+ re-rollable cover save.

Cultists 50

1850 pots

A common mistake with FMCs builds is landing too early and trying to assault things. Swooping makes you unpredictable; Vector strike is incredibly powerful, 6 vector strikes a turn even more so. FMC lists take finesse to play, so pick your targets well- don't assume your DP will survive his suicide charge as they are incredibly vulnerable once landed.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:


Fateweaver isn't as good in a FMC list as Lords of Change, especially since you need everyone to assault.

I have to disagree here. Basically turning the Warp Storm into a weapon, plus Mastery 4 on a gun platform that can get a 2++ rerollable save - or even with a Warp Surge makes it a 3+ reroll 1's - is really really strong.

 calypso2ts wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:


Fateweaver isn't as good in a FMC list as Lords of Change, especially since you need everyone to assault.

I have to disagree here. Basically turning the Warp Storm into a weapon, plus Mastery 4 on a gun platform that can get a 2++ rerollable save - or even with a Warp Surge makes it a 3+ reroll 1's - is really really strong.

Yeah, I think Asmodai is generally dead on, but I don't get the thinking here. I'd argue the opposite, that a Flying Circus can't compete without Fateweaver. He can do so much. He keeps your Princes in the air, 8/9 is vastly better than 2/3. He keeps the Grimoire reliable. He is effectively a guaranteed objective contested end game. He murders GEQ. He murders light vehicles. He murders all non Storm Raven fliers. He can be used to tarpit a dangerous assault unit indefinitely. In my circus I find Fateweaver doing like 90% of the work, I don't know how it would operate without him. I often call my list "Fateweaver versus the world" because he is by far the most important part of my circus build.

Something I'm picking up on here is using the FMCs to contest. Perhaps its merely a house rule I heard or a misheard statement, but I thought that anything flying (FMCs swooping and Flyers in non-hover mode) cannot score or deny. Am I wrong in this? How do the big GTs like Nova and Adepticon do it?

Flyers can't contest, but FMCs aren't flyers, even if they're swooping.

To be more precise, flyers can't contest because they're either (a) vehicles, so they never contest, or (b) too far from the objective (because they're more than 3" off the ground).

Yeah, I think Asmodai is generally dead on, but I don't get the thinking here. I'd argue the opposite, that a Flying Circus can't compete without Fateweaver. He can do so much. He keeps your Princes in the air, 8/9 is vastly better than 2/3. He keeps the Grimoire reliable. He is effectively a guaranteed objective contested end game. He murders GEQ. He murders light vehicles. He murders all non Storm Raven fliers. He can be used to tarpit a dangerous assault unit indefinitely. In my circus I find Fateweaver doing like 90% of the work, I don't know how it would operate without him. I often call my list "Fateweaver versus the world" because he is by far the most important part of my circus build.

D'awww thanks. My rationale here is that against tier one builds (O'vesa Star, Seer Council, Beastpackstar, Screamerstar, Grav Star) Fateweaver's shooting is largely negated by either Talisman-buffed DTW or 2+ rerollables. Against tier one builds you want to be able to assault, because both O'vesa Star and Seer Council are far weaker against assault than shooting, and the LOC is a beast; however, just one LOC isn't enough, you really need two. Fateweaver is great of course, and could definitely work as well, and warp storm re-rolls and single dice reroll are good, but he's pretty much locked into a single mode of play, and the LoC allows you the points to get a 6th DP.

Lord of Change, Grimoire, Lvl 3, 285
Lord of Change, Portaglyph, 260

Fateweaver isn't as good in a FMC list as Lords of Change, especially since you need everyone to assault.

Plaguebearers, Icon 100
Plaguebearers, Icon 100

Pink horrors are only useful in units larger than 15. Icon gives them FNP, for a 2+ cover save in ruins.

Daemon Prince, Tzeentch, Wings, Lvl 1 235
Daemon Prince, Tzeentch, Wings, Lvl 1 235
Daemon Prince, Tzeentch, Wings, Lvl 1 235

While lvl 1 might not be too impressive, having three is better than two with lvl 3 in my experience.

Allied CSM

Belakor 350

I think that although you have alot of FMCs in this list, they are too fragile. The ML 2 LOC is going to be sporting a 5++ in many a game. I wouldn't take the LOC without 2 Greater Gifts and ML 3. That way, he will usually get at least one modifier to make him more durable, and if the stars align, he can be nigh unkillable.

I've found DPs to be very squishy for the cost. The threat of insta death to things like Wraithknights and any smashing MC is very high. Furthermore, ML1 means that they are either shooting 2d6 Flickering Fire (meh) or Psychic Shriek (which can be amazing, but can be meh as well). In addition, using the Grimiore on Be'lakor seems to be potentially wasteful. Better to spearhead attacks with a Grimiored LOC (hoping to roll a 4++). Also, I don't know where a 10 point Icon is giving Plaguebearers FNP.

Finally, as others have mentioned, the Fateweaver is just too important not to take. The Warp Storm table is actually a pretty positive part of Daemons, but it can be the cause of lost games as well. The -1 Invulnerable Save, Instability Tests, and even god specific punishments at the wrong time are too risky for 6-8 round events. Fateweaver stops that. His shooting and utility are also underrated. The ability to hit him with the Grimiore and use him to tie up units without hit and run is also incredible. While he is overly ubiquitous, it is for good reason. He is an auto-include.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

D'awww thanks. My rationale here is that against tier one builds (O'vesa Star, Seer Council, Beastpackstar, Screamerstar, Grav Star) Fateweaver's shooting is largely negated by either Talisman-buffed DTW or 2+ rerollables.

I think the difference might be in the approach to dealing with some of those units. I use Fateweaver to murder their troops - which usually have a 4+ or worse save. He is not worth shooting at for the most part when he is buffed into 2++ range - and at the least he can push those games into a draw.

I played the Grav Centurion deathstar (eternal shield on bike Chapter Master, Buff Tau Commander, Shadowsun) and Fateweaver won the game by picking off his Kroot and SM scout troops. Against a Seer Council, his role is the same to knockout Guardians/Dire Avengers/Jetbikes. Same story for the O'vesa star.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

Yeah, I think Asmodai is generally dead on, but I don't get the thinking here. I'd argue the opposite, that a Flying Circus can't compete without Fateweaver. He can do so much. He keeps your Princes in the air, 8/9 is vastly better than 2/3. He keeps the Grimoire reliable. He is effectively a guaranteed objective contested end game. He murders GEQ. He murders light vehicles. He murders all non Storm Raven fliers. He can be used to tarpit a dangerous assault unit indefinitely. In my circus I find Fateweaver doing like 90% of the work, I don't know how it would operate without him. I often call my list "Fateweaver versus the world" because he is by far the most important part of my circus build.

D'awww thanks. My rationale here is that against tier one builds (O'vesa Star, Seer Council, Beastpackstar, Screamerstar, Grav Star) Fateweaver's shooting is largely negated by either Talisman-buffed DTW or 2+ rerollables. Against tier one builds you want to be able to assault, because both O'vesa Star and Seer Council are far weaker against assault than shooting, and the LOC is a beast; however, just one LOC isn't enough, you really need two. Fateweaver is great of course, and could definitely work as well, and warp storm re-rolls and single dice reroll are good, but he's pretty much locked into a single mode of play, and the LoC allows you the points to get a 6th DP.

Fateweaver won't be shooting at the unit with the rerollable or the 2++. He will be murdering Troops. Fateweaver can kill 4-6 GEQ UNITs a game if used correctly. Single unit Crisis Suits? Also getting nuked. Fateweaver wins me tons of games just through virtue of being invincible and being a Troop killing machine. 4d6 BS6, STR5 shots coupled with a beam that hits two units (and subjects them to toughness tests, killing more models) is brutally effective.