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HQ

Rune priest - Chooser, Divination 110

Troops

Grey hunter x 10, Melta X2, Standard, Wulfen, Pod - 215

Grey hunter x 10, Plasma X2, Standard, Wulfen, Pod - 220

Grey hunter x 10, Flamer X2, Standard Pod - 195

Grey hunter x 10, Plasma X2, Standard - 170

HS

Long fangs x6, missile x5 - 140

Storm wing

Stormraven - TL lascannon, TL MM - 200

Stormtalon - AC, Skyhammer - 125

Stormtalon - AC, Skyhammer - 125

I have all of the models except for the stormwing, which would be a nice xmas gift to myself. What does everyone think, sorry if there are all of the sudden a lot of stormwing posts.

Well to start with, Space Wolves don't have Raven or Talon. They don't have any flyers as far as I know.
If you took a single one, I guess no-one would mind but three is kind of pushing your luck.

With that said, if you manage to field this, it's a solid list. Three flyers will cause problems to any list. Only true problem I see is the single footslogging GH squad. They will have tough time staying alive.

 soomemafia wrote:
Well to start with, Space Wolves don't have Raven or Talon. They don't have any flyers as far as I know.
If you took a single one, I guess no-one would mind but three is kind of pushing your luck.

With that said, if you manage to field this, it's a solid list. Three flyers will cause problems to any list. Only true problem I see is the single footslogging GH squad. They will have tough time staying alive.

He is using the formation that does not count as allies/primary.

Well how about that, GW has found yet another way to rip us from our money
I should really start checking the new releases...

But as said, all is well now. This is a somewhat good list and enemy will have tough time dealing with those flyers.

Of course, you can have C:SM fliers without allies as part of their xmas releases, just you have to buy three. Smart business move haha.

Not sure how to maneuver my podless marines, but I felt having 4 full squads would have more utility over other options I considered. Would squeezing in a transport help? It is too bad they can't fly in the stormraven.

I have a lot of extra infantry models so I could have thrown in more devastators, wolf guard, HQ, or inquisition allies.

Uh, IIRC the FAQ says that they can fly in the raven....

Why the lascannon on the Stormraven? What do you need the range for when you can move 36" a turn? Why not stick with the assault cannon which is better against Vehicles and Infantry?

I would drop the last GH squad for more fire power. More Long fangs or something.

I could change the SR, I just thought I did not have much that could punch AV13 or AV14.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, would subbing out the 4th squad leave me too thin at troops?

The Assault Cannon is better against AV14 than a Lascannon so that reasoning makes literally no sense? Would you drop your plasma guns back to bolt guns on your Grey Hunters to help deal with Terminators?

You've still got 30 scoring MEQs at 1500 which is double what I'd have in a Vanilla Marine list at 1850! So I can't see that being a massive issue.

 FlingitNow wrote:
The Assault Cannon is better against AV14 than a Lascannon so that reasoning makes literally no sense?

Calm down.

I will figure out those percentages in excel. I plan on magnetizing the SR, so an easy swap.

The big choice now, seems what to do with ~170 points for the 4th squad. I have a dread and an aegis too but but I will probably go LF or wolf guard if I remove that squad.

The maths is fairly simple. The lascannon if it hits has a 1:6 chance to glance and the same to pen. An Asscann hit has a 1:6 chance to rend and then a 1:3 to either glance or pen. Meaning it is exactly one third as effective as the lascannon shot but you get 4 shots meaning it has a 33% better chance of glancing or penning compared to the Lascannon.

What you spend those points on is up to you. My current concern is if you go 2nd you have 6 MEQs on the field asking to give up FB and STW. So perhaps giving them more presence or swapping the lot to go all reserve is a good idea.

FlingitNow, you are correct that a TL AC is better against AV14 than a TL LC. Your math is a bit off though.

IIRC the LC has about 25% chance to atleast glance and the AC about 42% chance to atleast glance.
To pen the AC is at 33% and the LC at 12.5%

an AC alone, I believe, loses against a LC. It's the twin-linked that makes it better as you have a greater chance of rending.

EDIT: Ran the math, without TL the AC is at 22% to pen and 27.8% to atleast glance
LC is at 8.3% to pen and 16.7% to atleast glance

By 33% I meant 33% more than the lascannons (i.e. take your chance to glance or pen with a LC multiple that by 1.33 for average damage output of an AC). My maths really isn't off and both weapons are twin linked so you can take the rolls to hit out of the equation. You're maths is however off. You have an identical chance to glance as to pen with both weapons (only a 5 glances with LC and 6 pens, where as with AC 6 then 3 or 4 glances and 6 then 5 or 6 pens). So your chance to at least glance is exactly double your chance to pen.

you can't take to hit out of the equation. It makes a difference.

Furthermore, do the math calc step by step and you will see my percentages are correct.

As for your last statement, that is only correct for the lascannon as I have already stated above. With the Assault cannon it is not true.

You can take the hit out of the equation as both have the same chance to hit (8:9) trust me I did my degree in maths.

AC
Shots 4
Hit 2
re-roll 1
total hits 3
rend 0.5
glance 0.083
pen 0.33
atleast glance 0.413

LC
Shots 1
Hit 0.5
re-roll 0.25
total hits 0.75

glance 0.125
pen 0.125
atleast glance 0.25


Seems like an AC has 65.2% chance above that of a LC to glance or pen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry OP, got carried away.

FlingitNow, let's not hi-jack the thread even more.

why are you arguing about maths in a 40k army list? You have already both agreed that the TL AC is better than the TL LC

 BoTW wrote:
AC
Shots 4
Hit 2
re-roll 1
total hits 3
rend 0.5
glance 0.083
pen 0.33
atleast glance 0.413

LC
Shots 1
Hit 0.5
re-roll 0.25
total hits 0.75

glance 0.125
pen 0.125
atleast glance 0.25


Seems like an AC has 65.2% chance above that of a LC to glance or pen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry OP, got carried away.

FlingitNow, let's not hi-jack the thread even more.

Your maths here is well off.

4 x 8 / 9 = 3 5/9 hits
/6 = 0.5926
/3 = 0.1975 glances and 0.1975 pens
= 0.395 at least glances

Lascannons 1 x 8 / 9 = 0.8889 hits
/ 3 = 0.2963 glances or better

Yea I have embraced the assault cannon based on the evidence regardless of how to get there haha.

Still trying to figure out the core of my army. I could also eliminate the pods for even more boots on the ground.

 FlingitNow wrote:
You can take the hit out of the equation as both have the same chance to hit (8:9) trust me I did my degree in maths.

It's nothing to do with the maths, regardsless of how you work it, the AC is a more reliable tool.
The main problem is the inflammatory attitude and arrogance you exude which gets backs up in pretty much every thread you post in.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I like the pod heavy list, it's very "alpha strike - in your face" kind of list. I'd probably drop the long fangs and have more boots in pods

A good start, certainly IMO.

 smithy12262 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
You can take the hit out of the equation as both have the same chance to hit (8:9) trust me I did my degree in maths.

It's nothing to do with the maths, regardsless of how you work it, the AC is a more reliable tool.
The main problem is the inflammatory attitude and arrogance you exude which gets backs up in pretty much every thread you post in.

Thanks for the personal attack. So its nothing to do with the maths so how do you know the AC is better if not based on maths?

My perception of your attitude isn't a personal attack.

You misunderstand, it's been proven that an AC is a better choice than LC, so arguing maths in your calculator measuring contest is moot, as is criticising the calculations of others.

Quick maths on rough numbers gives a conclusive answer.

 smithy12262 wrote:
My perception of your attitude isn't a personal attack.

You misunderstand, it's been proven that an AC is a better choice than LC, so arguing maths in your calculator measuring contest is moot, as is criticising the calculations of others.

Quick maths on rough numbers gives a conclusive answer.

It really is a personal attack. And you haven't read the thread I gave quick (but accurate) maths. Was told my maths was wrong. I pointed out it wasn't with reiterated bad maths with then a full worked solution that was wrong so I pointed out what the actual maths was.

I'm not going involved in off-topic semantics and petulent arguments with a keyboard warrior. The thread's been hi-jacked enough.

I echo Feasible's "calm down" response. Don't take this too seriously. Arguing about the maths for plastic soldiers :s

 smithy12262 wrote:
I'm not going involved in off-topic semantics and petulent arguments with a keyboard warrior. The thread's been hi-jacked enough.

I echo Feasible's "calm down" response. Don't take this too seriously. Arguing about the maths for plastic soldiers :s

I completely agree. There was no need for an argument in this thread, nor will there be. Now can we please all calm down, stop flaming and give some advice about the army list.
I can't remember who said it but the GH squad not in the drop pod would be completely gunned down, also, what squad is the Rune Priest in? If it's one of the Podding squads he's probably going to get cut down the turn he comes in, so I'd think about taking him in the Stormraven.

Rune Priest can't go in the Storm Raven as they are allies. I concur with dropping the footslogging GHs.

I think you should put the RP with the LFs for divination re-rolls for the missiles

Yea I was planning on him hanging out with the LF's.

So I could do option 1, everyone one the ground


HQ

Rune priest - Chooser, Divination 110

Elites
TDA x5, combi melta x2 - 175

Troops

Grey hunter x 10, Melta X2, Standard, Wulfen - 180

Grey hunter x 10, Plasma X2, Standard, Wulfen -185

Grey hunter x 10, Plasma X2, Standard - 175

HS

Long fangs x5, missile x4 - 115

Long fangs x5, missile x4 - 115


Storm wing

Stormraven - AC, TL MM - 200

Stormtalon - AC, Skyhammer - 125

Stormtalon - AC, Skyhammer - 125


Or I could do option 2, everyone flying

Rune priest - jotww, LL 100

Elites
TDA x3, combi melta x2, pod - 144

Troops

Grey hunter x 8, flamer, Standard, pod - 165

Grey hunter x 10, Melta X2, Standard, Wulfen, pod - 215

Grey hunter x 10, Plasma X2, Standard, Wulfen, pod -220

Grey hunter x 10, Plasma X2, Standard, pod - 175

Storm wing

Stormraven - AC, TL MM, searchlight - 201

Stormtalon - AC, Skyhammer - 125

Stormtalon - AC, Skyhammer - 125




Haha oops edited so Stormraven has AC

I personally like list 2. No one starts on the board turn 1 and you get to double tap like a mad man when you come in! Be carful of Tau. Having interceptor vs this list would hurt.