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Does a serpent shield downgrade a Destroyer result (any of them) to a glancing hit?

I would image yes for 1) Penetrating hit and no for 2+

Does a Destroyer hit actually cause a Penetrating Hit?

On a 1 it causes a single penetrating hit, on a 2+ it causes craptons of hull points.

Serpent shield would downgrade the penetrating hit, nothing in the rules for destroyer weapons says the hit can't be downgraded.

But a 2+ the serpent just gets hull-pointed out of existence

Sounds good to me.

 ansacs wrote:
Does a serpent shield downgrade a Destroyer result (any of them) to a glancing hit?

I would image yes for 1) Penetrating hit and no for 2+

No, see wording of D weapons, they ignore any kind of saves, rolls, or special rules.

 Darog wrote:

 ansacs wrote:
Does a serpent shield downgrade a Destroyer result (any of them) to a glancing hit?

I would image yes for 1) Penetrating hit and no for 2+

No, see wording of D weapons, they ignore any kind of saves, rolls, or special rules.

They specifically listed what rolls D weapons ignore: saves, FNP, and RP. That's it! If they intended for anything else they would have listed it or been more specific than "special rolls".

^This. They don't ignore the Rev's holo save for instance

 Dakkamite wrote:
^This. They don't ignore the Rev's holo save for instance

But that's only because the holofield rule specifically says that it works against D-weapons. The D-weapon rules don't only ignore FNP/RP, they just give those as "such as" examples. The Wave Serpent's special ability is pretty obviously a similar defensive roll that should not be allowed against D-weapons.

A roll on 1, you cause a penetrating hit and yes, the waveserpent can downgrade it.

A roll of 2+ causes you to lose HP, that's it.

Would St celestine be able to get back up after D hit?

 Peregrine wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:
^This. They don't ignore the Rev's holo save for instance

But that's only because the holofield rule specifically says that it works against D-weapons. The D-weapon rules don't only ignore FNP/RP, they just give those as "such as" examples. The Wave Serpent's special ability is pretty obviously a similar defensive roll that should not be allowed against D-weapons.

This you have to specifically call out Destroyer hits to get any sort of save or special roll against the damage. That's what the destroyer rules state.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mythantor wrote:
Would St celestine be able to get back up after D hit?

No.

Downgrading is NOT a save. While it functions off a dice roll, it is NOT a save - as a save ignores the result, this changes the result.

I see nothing that stops serpent shields working against D weapons

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Mythantor wrote:
Would St celestine be able to get back up after D hit?

No.

Wrong. She gets back up on the controlling players turn. It's not a save, nor a special rule to resist damage, nor anything else that the destroyer shot can do a thing about. Rather, it's regeneration of life which can happen against any form of damage. The only way to prevent her regeneration is to bypass the damage system alltogether and use a weapon which causes 'removal from play,' (IE Jaws.) [Citation Needed.] Or, use a rule which gets rid of her power alltogether. (IE Zogworts Curse.)

The only way is Zog's curse or if she was never on the table at all (i.e. deep strike mishap where she isn't the model used to roll scatter).

Waaaghpower wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Mythantor wrote:
Would St celestine be able to get back up after D hit?

No.

Wrong. She gets back up on the controlling players turn. It's not a save, nor a special rule to resist damage, nor anything else that the destroyer shot can do a thing about. Rather, it's regeneration of life which can happen against any form of damage. The only way to prevent her regeneration is to bypass the damage system alltogether and use a weapon which causes 'removal from play,' (IE Jaws.) [Citation Needed.] Or, use a rule which gets rid of her power alltogether. (IE Zogworts Curse.)

Check the destroyer rules. RP is almost exactly the same as Celestine's rule in how it functions as is EL both, Destroyer calls out such rules. Destroyer says do you have a roll that means the model hasn't suffered damage? Then you don't get it.

She does suffer damage. She just gets back up later.

 pretre wrote:
She does suffer damage. She just gets back up later.

So does a Necron with a RP roll.

 Tarrasq wrote:

 Darog wrote:

 ansacs wrote:
Does a serpent shield downgrade a Destroyer result (any of them) to a glancing hit?

I would image yes for 1) Penetrating hit and no for 2+

No, see wording of D weapons, they ignore any kind of saves, rolls, or special rules.

They specifically listed what rolls D weapons ignore: saves, FNP, and RP. That's it! If they intended for anything else they would have listed it or been more specific than "special rolls".

This isn't true. The rule states, "including special rolls such as Feel No Pain or Necron Reanimation Protocols." That means D weapons ignore all manner of special rolls, like Celestine and Thawn. FNP and RP are examples of what D ignores, and not an exhaustive list.

Except RP occurs at the end of the same phase that you took damage. Celestine's ability takes place on an entirely different turn.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 Tarrasq wrote:

 Darog wrote:

 ansacs wrote:
Does a serpent shield downgrade a Destroyer result (any of them) to a glancing hit?

I would image yes for 1) Penetrating hit and no for 2+

No, see wording of D weapons, they ignore any kind of saves, rolls, or special rules.

They specifically listed what rolls D weapons ignore: saves, FNP, and RP. That's it! If they intended for anything else they would have listed it or been more specific than "special rolls".

This isn't true. The rule states, "including special rolls such as Feel No Pain or Necron Reanimation Protocols." That means D weapons ignore all manner of special rolls, like Celestine and Thawn. FNP and RP are examples of what D ignores, and not an exhaustive list.

Gonna have to give it to this man, reading comprehension FTW!

Waaaghpower wrote:
Except RP occurs at the end of the same phase that you took damage. Celestine's ability takes place on an entirely different turn.

Yes that's true but I don't see why you think that makes a difference nothing in the D weapons rules state phase.

My argument would be that D weapons on a roll of a 2+ do not actually cause a penetrating hit. It's similar to how you can't make saves against JoWW because it doesn't cause wounds. on a roll of a 2+ the vehicle suffers an explodes result, there is not penetrating hit to reduce, therefore the serpent shield is ineffective.

However, the question remains, if a Destroyer weapon rolls a 1 on its "I'm-a gonna damage youse" roll, can a Serpent Shield knock it down to a glance? It's still taking damage, just not as severe (if allowed).

 FlingitNow wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
Except RP occurs at the end of the same phase that you took damage. Celestine's ability takes place on an entirely different turn.

Yes that's true but I don't see why you think that makes a difference nothing in the D weapons rules state phase.

However, it does make Celestine and Thawns rule dissimilar to the rules mentioned. It's close, and in a game I'd probably not press the issue, that's just my interpretation.
As for the serpent shield, I'd say that it works if the destroyer hit rolls a '1', but not otherwise.

If the D weapon rolled a 1, you could downgrade it as it states it is a penetrating hit.

On a 2+, the doesnt suffer a penetrating hit, it just explodes. So no, not on a D weapon rolling 2 or higher.

Is it a special roll?
Does it reduce the damage you have suffered as a result of a destroyer hit?

If the answer is yes to those then you can not use that rule against Destroyer hits.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Is it a special roll?
Does it reduce the damage you have suffered as a result of a destroyer hit?

If the answer is yes to those then you can not use that rule against Destroyer hits.

Isn't this the EXACT same scenario that has been discussed at length for EL versus Sweeping Advance?

 FlingitNow wrote:
Is it a special roll?
Does it reduce the damage you have suffered as a result of a destroyer hit?

If the answer is yes to those then you can not use that rule against Destroyer hits.

Special roll? Yes.
Reduce damage? No.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Is it a special roll?
Does it reduce the damage you have suffered as a result of a destroyer hit?

If the answer is yes to those then you can not use that rule against Destroyer hits.

Special roll? Yes.
Reduce damage? No.

Are you talking about the shield or Celestine now? If the former then that is a ludicrous statement to make. Therefore I assume you're talking about Celestine? Does she get back up and discount the damage? Like a Necron with an RP roll just at a different time? If so then clearly no roll.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Is it a special roll?
Does it reduce the damage you have suffered as a result of a destroyer hit?

If the answer is yes to those then you can not use that rule against Destroyer hits.

Special roll? Yes.
Reduce damage? No.

Are you talking about the shield or Celestine now? If the former then that is a ludicrous statement to make. Therefore I assume you're talking about Celestine? Does she get back up and discount the damage? Like a Necron with an RP roll just at a different time? If so then clearly no roll.

Celestine. And the rule states that she gets new wounds, not ignores old damage. Does Destroyer annul Regeneration? Or Life Leech?