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McNinja wrote: The Emperor of Mankind
WS8 BS8 S6 T6 W5 I6 A5 Ld10 Sv2+
Unit type: Infantry (character)
Wargear:
-The Burning Blade S+2 AP1 Melee, Force
-The Eagles Talon Sx2 AP3 Melee, Shred, Force
-The Armor Aquilla - 2+ armor save, 3+ invulnerable save
Special Rules:
- God Emperor (Eternal Warrior, Fleet, It Will Not Die, Adamantium Will, Fearless, Fear) - Beacon of Light - All friendly Imperial models (Space Marines, Sisters of Battle, Grey Knights, Inquisition, or Imperial Guard) that can draw line of sight to the Emperor have the Fearless special rule. Otherwise, all friendly models within 24" gain +1 Leadership.
- A God Among Men - The Emperor of Man is perhaps the most powerful Psyker in the galaxy. In normal games of Warhammer 40,000 (regardless of whether or not Escalation is being used), the Emperor is Mastery Level 5 and may choose his powers from any Discipline in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook and passes any Deny the Witch rolls on a 2+. This roll may also be used against any psychic ability or effect of a psychic ability that reduces his stats. The Emperor may use any spell multiple times per turn, bypassing any usual restriction on using the same power multiple times in a phase or turn. In addition, the Emperor rolls 4D6 and takes the two lowest results when taking a Leadership test. He is not affected by Perils of the Warp.
In games of Apocalypse, the Emperor is Mastery Level 6, counts all psychic powers as only costing 1 Warp Charge (except for the ones listed below), and can choose whether to pass or fail any Deny the Witch rolls and automatically denies any negative stat changes. He also has access to the following powers in addition to the Rulebook disciplines:
- Psychic Beam - Warp Charge 4 - A beam of pure energy streaks across the battlefield, vaporizing all but the most powerful monsters and machines. Psychic Beam is a beam with the following profile: R:24" SD AP1 Type: Assault 1, Blind
- The Emperor's Shield - Warp Charge 4 - A truly impervious bulwark against anything and everything, this wall of solidified psychic energy protects against even ship-based weaponry. The Emperor's Shield is a Blessing that affects the Emperor and his unit. While it is in effect, all weapons or negative effects used against the Emperor or his unit automatically miss, regardless of their source. If the Emperor uses the Gate of Infinity power, he does not scatter.
Additionally, the Emperor may choose to use his Warp Charges to modify his psychic powers. 1 Warp Charge can add +6" to the powers' range, +2S to the abilities strength (or, in the case of Psychic Shriek, make the roll 4D6), or -2 AP. If the ability grants bonuses such as cover or invulnerable saves, the save granted by the power is improved by 1. For instance, The Emperor could spend 2 Warp Charges to turn Molten Beam from its standard profile to R:18" S:10 AP1, making it cost 3 warp charges total. He could also spend 5 warp charges and simply increase its range to 42".
- The Anathema - All Chaos models have -1 Leadership. If they assault or are assaulted by the Emperor or his unit, they must take a Daemonic Instability test if the are from Codex: Chaos Daemons or a fear test is they are from Codex: Chaos Space Marines. This test is taken in spite of any rule that usually discounts a model from taking the test, such as Fearless or And They Shall Know No Fear.
Ok this is amongst the worst Emperor rule sets we've seen.
God dang the Primarchs are more durable AND better at melee. The one thing done remotely right is the fact he has unique powers.
Here's a rule for you all: He needs to be the next level up from primarchs. This means 7s in everything.
God dang the Primarchs are more durable AND better at melee.
Yes, almost like they were designed by a supergenius who actually needed them, instead of being capable of doing everything better by himself.
Here's a rule for you all: He needs to be the next level up from primarchs. This means 7s in everything.
Nope. That might be your interpretation and you're entitled to it, but it doesn't mean that others are automatically wrong.
When the Primarchs were born from him?
That just doesn't make any kind of sense fluff wise.
It makes perfect sense. He engineered the Primarchs because he needed superhuman warriors to fight for him. Doctor Frankenstein wasn't physically stronger than the monster he created nor could Henry Ford outrun model T.
I agree with you somewhat. He was however stronger than the primarchs but only due to his psychics abilities. In terms of combat ability I believe some of the primarchs were better.
BrotherHaraldus wrote: Admittedly Urlakk Urg was the second hardest and most infamous Ork ever. Only The Beast can compete for the spot. He didn't "get his ass handed to him" either really honestly; it says he was killed by the Emperor and Horus, as the Ork tried to "crush the life" out of the Emperor. The fight could well have been rather even, and since we do not know just how powerful said Ork was (Clearly rather strong, since it took the Emperor and Horus to defeat him) we can't really use him as a basis to judge the Emperor's stats.
That Ork could well have been a S8 T8 W8 A8 monster. Who knows?
It was merely an ork strangling the Emperor, it didn't take them both to kill it. The Emperor was dying Horus jus killed it.
Well there was that condensed super nova laser, and beating the snot out of the void dragon who withstood planet busting hits. So yeah he did.
That ork was the size of a soul grinder and empowered by a waagh the size of the eastern fringe of the galaxy.
Where are these stories from? I'd like to read them!
They don't exist. Why don't you go ahead and cite exactly where it says that the ork was "the size of a soulgrinder". Your statement that the waaagh was the size of the eastern fringe is erroneous as well. The largest recorded waaagh in the galaxies history was Ghazghkull Thrakka's waaagh on Amaggedon. It was not even a fraction of that size.
It was only the Emperor, his forces, Horus and the poorly trained prototype Luna Wolves fighting them. Do you honestly think they would have been capable of fighting off a waaagh "the size of the eastern fringe of the galaxy"?
XXXX
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/02 20:12:04
Well there was that condensed super nova laser, and beating the snot out of the void dragon who withstood planet busting hits. So yeah he did.
That ork was the size of a soul grinder and empowered by a waagh the size of the eastern fringe of the galaxy.
Where are these stories from? I'd like to read them!
They don't exist. Why don't you go ahead and cite exactly where it says that the ork was "the size of a soulgrinder". Your statement that the waaagh was the size of the eastern fringe is erroneous as well. The largest recorded waaagh in the galaxies history was Ghazghkull Thrakka's waaagh on Amaggedon. It was not even a fraction of that size.
It was only the Emperor, his forces, Horus and the poorly trained prototype Luna Wolves fighting them. Do you honestly think they would have been capable of fighting off a waaagh "the size of the eastern fringe of the galaxy"?
XXXX
You should really ensure that your own statements are correct before you dispute the validity of others, however. Ghazghkull's Waaagh! is not even close to the largest ever.
I'm afraid it is you who needs to brush up on your knowledge of 40k, Ghazghskulls second Waaagh has been sited by a variety of sources, including white dwarf as the largest waaagh ever. Not to mention the fact that Waaagh The Beast is only described as the largest Waaagh by Lexicanum as a source. Additionally Waaagh the beast predates The second War for Amaggedon. Therefore in the time period in which it was taken place it was the largest Waaagh ever yes, however as the second war for Amaggedon comes afterwards and is also described as the largest then we can infer that it is larger.
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Automatically Appended Next Post: Besides this is not relevant to the original point. What he has just claimed is total crap that is never cited by a credible source. Therefore it has no bearing in the overall argument of how strong the Emperor should be.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/03 01:47:11
The way that piece is worded suggests that it is contained to that current time frame. While the 6ed rule book does overall WD it does not in any way directly counter it here so my point still stands. As for finding the sources, I have credited one in a white dwarf, they are many others spread across much of the detailing of the second war for Amaggedon. I personally can't be find them as I don't retain old WD's and rulebooks. There's a difference between my statement and The Primordials, his has never and is never backed up in any way and is utterly ludicrous. Mine is credible.
BrotherHaraldus wrote: His argument, while seemingly unsourced, gains additional credibility the same way that my example gains a bit of its own.
Reason.
He stated two things, that the Ork was the size of a Soul Grinder and that the Waaagh was the size of half the galaxy.
Both are likely hyperbole, but not as much as you might think.
We know that larger Orks always are in charge. We know he must be pretty damn big, since he lorded over an empire that needed many Legions to crush. And Legions were massive concentrations of military force, not to mention their Adeptus Mechanicus, Custodes, Navy and Army support. From the sheer size and power of his empire, we can conclude that Urlakk Urg was pretty darn big indeed. Not the size of a soul grinder, perhaps, but still considerably larger than Ghazghkull or Snagrod, whose empires, considering their current performance, would doubtlessly crumble in the face of multiple Legions.
As for the size of his Waaagh!. Well, the outcome is described as 'Ork population in the Milky Way galaxy devastated'. To devastate the Ork population in the galaxy, by crushing one empire, said empire must be rather large, no?
Fluff discussions is only half throwing quotes at one another, you know. The other half is actually forming a picture out of the information we have, and drawing the most likely conclusions.
It was a single legion that faced his Waaagh. Would you mind quoting the source about the orks in the Milky Way being devastated. I can't find it. The Waaagh did in fact crumble. It was utterly devastated in a single battle. The size of an orks Waaagh does not actually much impact the size of the ork. Rather the size of the orks around him. Therefore there is no way of saying that the ork was ever larger than Ghazghkull. As no source ever directly states the Orks exact size one cannot simply make claims that it is the size of a soulgrinder.
As for ork empires crumbling in the face of legions you would be surprised, there are several accounts of not particularly notable Orkney empires standing up to multiple legions. Warboss Overdogg Mashogg held up Leman Russ, his space wolves, the White Scars and the Great Khan and Perturabo+his iron warriors for a decent amount of time before he was eventually defeated. His Waaagh is never described as being of any significant size. In this case it is very doubtful that Ghazghkulls Waaagh would "crumble" as you put it against an attack by legions.
Furthermore I will point out that at this time the Luna Wolves (who were fighting) were comprised primarily of prototype space marines taken form the hyper violent gang scum of Horus' home planet (against their will) and so were not the super efficient fighting forces that the legions became known as.
XXXX
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/03 17:06:24
BrotherHaraldus wrote: His argument, while seemingly unsourced, gains additional credibility the same way that my example gains a bit of its own.
Reason.
He stated two things, that the Ork was the size of a Soul Grinder and that the Waaagh was the size of half the galaxy.
Both are likely hyperbole, but not as much as you might think.
We know that larger Orks always are in charge. We know he must be pretty damn big, since he lorded over an empire that needed many Legions to crush. And Legions were massive concentrations of military force, not to mention their Adeptus Mechanicus, Custodes, Navy and Army support. From the sheer size and power of his empire, we can conclude that Urlakk Urg was pretty darn big indeed. Not the size of a soul grinder, perhaps, but still considerably larger than Ghazghkull or Snagrod, whose empires, considering their current performance, would doubtlessly crumble in the face of multiple Legions.
As for the size of his Waaagh!. Well, the outcome is described as 'Ork population in the Milky Way galaxy devastated'. To devastate the Ork population in the galaxy, by crushing one empire, said empire must be rather large, no?
Fluff discussions is only half throwing quotes at one another, you know. The other half is actually forming a picture out of the information we have, and drawing the most likely conclusions.
It was a single legion that faced his Waaagh. Would you mind quoting the source about the orks in the Milky Way being devastated. I can't find it. The Waaagh did in fact crumble. It was utterly devastated in a single battle. The size of an orks Waaagh does not actually much impact the size of the ork. Rather the size of the orks around him. Therefore there is no way of saying that the ork was ever larger than Ghazghkull. As no source ever directly states the Orks exact size one cannot simply make claims that it is the size of a soulgrinder.
As for ork empires crumbling in the face of legions you would be surprised, there are several accounts of not particularly notable Orkney empires standing up to multiple legions. Warboss Overdogg Mashogg held up Leman Russ, his space wolves, the White Scars and the Great Khan and Perturabo+his iron warriors for a decent amount of time before he was eventually defeated. His Waaagh is never described as being of any significant size. In this case it is very doubtful that Ghazghkulls Waaagh would "crumble" as you put it against an attack by legions.
Furthermore I will point out that at this time the Luna Wolves (who were fighting) were comprised primarily of prototype space marines taken form the hyper violent gang scum of Horus' home planet (against their will) and so were not the super efficient fighting forces that the legions became known as.
100,000 Astartes drawn from multiple Space Marine Legions including the Luna Wolves, Ultramarines and White Scars, 8 million Imperial Army troops, multiple Titan Legions, thousands of Imperial starships and millions of support personnel
Ork population in the Milky Way Galaxy devastated
Sources are at the bottom.
If it impacts the size of the Orks around him it must impact his own size as well. He must, after all, be larger than them to stay in charge.
It was not only Luna Wolves, as you can see above. It also had all kinds of support, including the Emperor himself and friends.
And here in lies the problem with your argument. This was not the battle where the Emperor was saved by Horus...
XXXX
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/03 17:27:52
BrotherHaraldus wrote: His argument, while seemingly unsourced, gains additional credibility the same way that my example gains a bit of its own.
Reason.
He stated two things, that the Ork was the size of a Soul Grinder and that the Waaagh was the size of half the galaxy.
Both are likely hyperbole, but not as much as you might think.
We know that larger Orks always are in charge. We know he must be pretty damn big, since he lorded over an empire that needed many Legions to crush. And Legions were massive concentrations of military force, not to mention their Adeptus Mechanicus, Custodes, Navy and Army support. From the sheer size and power of his empire, we can conclude that Urlakk Urg was pretty darn big indeed. Not the size of a soul grinder, perhaps, but still considerably larger than Ghazghkull or Snagrod, whose empires, considering their current performance, would doubtlessly crumble in the face of multiple Legions.
As for the size of his Waaagh!. Well, the outcome is described as 'Ork population in the Milky Way galaxy devastated'. To devastate the Ork population in the galaxy, by crushing one empire, said empire must be rather large, no?
Fluff discussions is only half throwing quotes at one another, you know. The other half is actually forming a picture out of the information we have, and drawing the most likely conclusions.
It was a single legion that faced his Waaagh. Would you mind quoting the source about the orks in the Milky Way being devastated. I can't find it. The Waaagh did in fact crumble. It was utterly devastated in a single battle. The size of an orks Waaagh does not actually much impact the size of the ork. Rather the size of the orks around him. Therefore there is no way of saying that the ork was ever larger than Ghazghkull. As no source ever directly states the Orks exact size one cannot simply make claims that it is the size of a soulgrinder.
As for ork empires crumbling in the face of legions you would be surprised, there are several accounts of not particularly notable Orkney empires standing up to multiple legions. Warboss Overdogg Mashogg held up Leman Russ, his space wolves, the White Scars and the Great Khan and Perturabo+his iron warriors for a decent amount of time before he was eventually defeated. His Waaagh is never described as being of any significant size. In this case it is very doubtful that Ghazghkulls Waaagh would "crumble" as you put it against an attack by legions.
Furthermore I will point out that at this time the Luna Wolves (who were fighting) were comprised primarily of prototype space marines taken form the hyper violent gang scum of Horus' home planet (against their will) and so were not the super efficient fighting forces that the legions became known as.
100,000 Astartes drawn from multiple Space Marine Legions including the Luna Wolves, Ultramarines and White Scars, 8 million Imperial Army troops, multiple Titan Legions, thousands of Imperial starships and millions of support personnel
Ork population in the Milky Way Galaxy devastated
Sources are at the bottom.
If it impacts the size of the Orks around him it must impact his own size as well. He must, after all, be larger than them to stay in charge.
It was not only Luna Wolves, as you can see above. It also had all kinds of support, including the Emperor himself and friends.
And here in lies the problem with your argument. This was not the battle where the Emperor was saved by Horus...
XXXX
An example. Ullanor was not the point. It was an example of the reasoning path. The Emperor is not weak because an Ork tried to crush him. The Ork is strong because he nearly managed to crush the Emperor.
We know that the Emperor is super-powerful already, since he killed Horus with the four Gods of Chaos channeling power into him even when he himself had his back broken, an eye destroyed and his arm torn from its socket. And the Astronomican, which he upholds even after having been a skeleton for what, ten thousand years?
The entire debate we were having was over the size and strength of the ork. It now turns out that the ork you have been referencing this entire time is not even the ork that was in fact attacking the Emperor. Explain to me exactly how that is not the point?
XXXX
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/03 17:42:40
BrotherHaraldus wrote: Because said Ork, Urlakk Urg, was beaten by Horus (Who is weaker in combat than the Emperor for the reasons stated in my previous post, not to mention him being younger and less experienced at this point) and yet this unnamed Ork managed to best, but not kill thanks to the intervention of Horus, the Emperor.
Are you seeing the pattern now?
Or, to simplify.
Young Horus < Old Horus
Emperor > Old Horus
Urlakk Urg < Young Horus
Unnamed Ork > Emperor
Ergo
Unnamed Ork > Urlakk Urg
Which is why Urlakk is so relevant, because we knew he was super-duperbig and powerful, though likely not Soul Grinder big, and unnamed Ork was even more powerful.
And yet it is merely plot armour that allowed Horus to defeat that ork. You cannot possibly compare this unnamed ork to Urlakk Urg through these events alone. If you are however using that logic though, Horus was forced to duel Urlakk to defeat him, he slew the ork strangling the Emperor with a single stroke.
I'm not saying that the Emperor is weaker than the Ork that was strangling him, and I'm certainly not saying he was weak. It can and must however be a noted fact when making his rules and hints that he is not this all powerful 1500 point characte that you and the Primoridal imagine.
A revenant Titan would destroy the Emperor in fluff and certainly should table top wise. Likewise it would kill Horus in a single blast without needing to engage him in single combat like the Emperor does. Basically this whole point is that the Empeor should not be as ridiculously powerful as you feel he should be represented.
ThePrimordial wrote: How is this thread not dead yet?
Pretty much everyone at 3 of the FLGS I frequent, said that the Emperor should stay in Legend and I agree wholeheartedly at this point.
This thread is not dead yet as there is still an ongoing debate. The fact that you are no longer participating and have resigned yourself to a conclusion does not mean that others should immediately cease.
Ever consider the two statements were separate?
Being nice can't be this hard.
No as they are entirely connected to one another. You have come to a conclusion and thus have stated the thread should have died by now. Essentially you are saying because I have had a discussion somewhere else with somebody else about this subject and reached a conclusion, this thread should have ended by now. They may have been stated separately but they still link together in exactly the same way...
Wait......you're attempting to tell me what MY intention was with two unconnected statements?
I was simply giving my newfound thinking on the matter. Nothing more, and nothing less.
How exactly were you giving new found thinking on the matter when your two statements were: "how is this thread not dead yet" and "I think the Emperor should be confined to fluff" a viewpoint that has been consistently put forward in this discussion. You weren't.
BrotherHaraldus wrote: Because said Ork, Urlakk Urg, was beaten by Horus (Who is weaker in combat than the Emperor for the reasons stated in my previous post, not to mention him being younger and less experienced at this point) and yet this unnamed Ork managed to best, but not kill thanks to the intervention of Horus, the Emperor.
Are you seeing the pattern now?
Or, to simplify.
Young Horus < Old Horus
Emperor > Old Horus
Urlakk Urg < Young Horus
Unnamed Ork > Emperor
Ergo
Unnamed Ork > Urlakk Urg
Which is why Urlakk is so relevant, because we knew he was super-duperbig and powerful, though likely not Soul Grinder big, and unnamed Ork was even more powerful.
None of this makes any sense. That person A managed to best person B in combat is not proof that person A is more powerful. I have had terminators killed by gretchin; that doesn't mean grots are more powerful than marines in TDA. It is quite possible that chaos-fuelled Horus was quite a bit more powerful than the Emperor; Emperor practically died too and it took all his strength and an armour broken by Sanguinius to defeat Horus.
Quite.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/03 18:19:28
