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Hey guys, it's me again, testing out my tournament lists with the incredible minds of Dakkadakka, so let me know what you guys think so far. It's 1600pts, special characters aloud, normal army building rules the only comp is NO LORDS, wether custom or special characters etc. Secondly, all regenerative saves are at -1 for the first 3 games, so standard regen is a 5++ now. I figured I would struggle taking vampires with no lords and my usual DP has to sit at home... In theory so here it is:

SHADOW GUARD 1600

HERO
Bane; Whispering Rider: Chaos Sorceror, Unmarked, Level 2, Shadow, Chaos Familiar, Tailsman of Preservation, Charmed Sheild, Daemonic Mount - 255

3 wounds, toughness 5, 3 spells, 1+ 4++, ignoring first hit on 2++

CORE
Shadow Guard: 20 Chaos Warriors, Additional Hand Weapons, Nurgle, Sheilds, Full Command, Standard of +1Movement - 425

6x4 with the hero in the front, -1 to hit is fantastic especially if their withered or I'm mindrazored

SPECIAL
The Beast: Gorebeast Chariot, Mark of Khorne - 140

Fantastic little tank, used for flanking or powerhousing

The Catalyst of the Gods: Warshrine, Mark of Tzeentch - 135

Part I of my plan, ignoring its a multiwound 3++ ward chariot

Aspiring Demi-Gods: 2 units of 6 Chosen of Chaos, Mark of Nurgle, Halbards, Champion - 138 (276)

Seeing as I can't take a daemon Prince, I'll grow one 4 dice on eye of the Gods each before the game and then d3 chances per phase, each roll statistically gets a 14-18% chance of dp, and if not the buffs on thoose units is disgusting

RARE
Brass Behemoths: 4 Skullcrushers of Khorne, Standard, Muscain, Banner of +1 leadership, enscrolled weapons - 347

Tanks! Utter tanks, usually I take a hellcannon but he has become unpredictable of late

Can't decide to make my chosen Khrone (same points) to give them immune to psych, anyway that's the list guys, think it's 1598/1600 total

i think its a great list tbh.

the only thing i would change would be the shields for halberds on the warriors. Either that or go Tzeentch if keeping them.

Points trimming should be fairly easy without compromising the list.

another thought, swapping the warshrine for a another Gorebeast could be fun also.

Hey 'mixer86', cheers for commenting.

The warriors were a tough one to build right I'm still not sure if I have them where I want them to be, might go tzeentch for the 5++ parry save especaily if mind razor goes off because then ill be strength 8 n the halberd becomes redundant.

I want to keep the shrine because if I deploy my 2 choosen units within 12in of it they each roll 4d6 picking the 2 they want to use for there pre-game gift from the gods and it really increases my chances of getting them buffed crazy. Im just annoyed its no longer stubborn :(

First of all, I love your army list style. Major props for the flavor.

Second of all, there is a rule I want to drill into your head when it comes to WoC. DO NOT TRY TO MAKE A DP FACTORY LIST. Using a warshrine (or even two) and lots of small chosen blocks in an attempt to crank out a DP is a slot machine tactic that, on average, does not pay out. On top of that, it turns the game into a coin flip. If you get the DP, you're likely going to win. If not (which is more likely), you are going to get run over because you've sunk so many points into the idea. I've seen this list play out before, and that's how it went every time. It gets boring really fast, and it's not even a good idea from an odds standpoint. The only guaranteed roll you're going to get is at the start of the game, and from then on you're relying on a very easily dispelled bound spell. When I faced this kind of list all I had to do was dispel the bound spell each time, and then I just plowed on through.

That being said, if you want to keep your shrine and chosen, just combine the two units of chosen into one and focus on getting them a great buff. Don't even look at the 12 result, treat it as an occasional bonus. Instead go for reliability and treat your chosen as a warriors-on-steroids block when it comes to your overall strategy. For their mark, you could probably try both but I think either would be fine. Just depends on playstyle.

You can also drop one skullcrusher and get 2-3 more chosen to beef up the block a little more or fill out your warriors to a full 4 ranks. 3 skullcrushers is almost always enough, especially in a 1600 list where they're relatively expensive per model. Definitely a great unit, though. You may want to consider swapping their banner with the gleaming pennant instead. I assume you have that in there to help them on their frenzy checks, and if so the pennant will be more bang for your buck. If they've lost combat, you're in a much worse place than that banner will help get you out of.

So, let's talk about warriors! AHW is a very niche option. Halberds are strictly better in every mundane case... EXCEPT when certain specific buffs are in place. Poison, for example, makes AHW better. Mindrazor would definitely make AHW better, as you pointed out.

It's not something you can rely on, though. Check out this spreadsheet I made about a month ago showing all the various casting chances and values. With 3 spells (level 2 + familiar), you've got a 72% chance to get Mindrazor. Not bad, certainly, but not guaranteed. On top of that, you're attempting to cast Mindrazor with a level 2. An 18+ means you need 16 on the dice. 5 dice is your minimum, and then you've got a 69% chance of casting it successfully, with a 19% chance of IR + miscast. Not reliable by any means. And if you're devoting this much casting to a single spell, you'll likely be draining dice through miscast results, using up your entire pool on a low winds of magic roll, and even then you might just eat a dispel scroll at the crucial moment, or get 6 dice thrown at it to dispel. It's a brutal combo and would be awesome, but again, not something to plan around having every game, nevermind every combat. Your warshrine also wants to use 2 dice for its bound spell, remember. I wouldn't say to scrap the idea, I just want to make sure you don't use it as part of your central strategy when you're going into a game. Another 'nice if it happens, but not necessary if it doesn't' sort of deal. As for AHW vs Halberds... it's not a huge difference in most cases, and while I'd prefer halberds even with the possibility of mindrazor, I could totally see sticking with AHW.

Just don't go MoT with shields. You need killing power with this list because of your low numbers. You need to murder people in combat and then move quickly to the next before you can be outflanked. MoT with shield is purely an anvil, and will get you bogged down.

Also, for the gorebeast, consider MoN instead of MoK. It becomes the ultimate tarpit but still provides plenty of killing power, as you're only giving up two S5 attacks (~1 wound in most cases) and MoK does nothing for impact hits, while simultaneously forcing overruns/pursuits and getting you into weird positions. Meanwhile the -1 to be hit makes it hilariously hard to kill. I run 2-3 gorebeasts with MoN when I can get away with it, they're fantastic. Not a huge deal either way, but something to consider.

Evertras, first of all your the guy I hope comments on all of my posts because of your absolute wonder with numbers! You remind me of Le Chiffre in Casino Royal sitting at the poker table, telling the other guy his odds, so PLEASE put your 2cent in more often, because too me its worth more than 2 cent

Nurgle on the Gorebeast, when you spell it like that is a no brainer, consider it done. Again the gleaming pendant as well is a no brainer when put into context. I went for addition hand weapon because Mindrazor, Withering and Enfeebling means they should have a low toughness anyway and if not then they will not be punching back with much, my normal build is Nurgle, Halbard, Shield, but I was thinking about testing new lists, the concept of Halberd Khorne I think is brutal, then the Shadow is just a bonus for Miasma or the other debuffs.

Your probably right about the 2 units becoming one, but my next question to you would be, if i ran my warriors as khorne halberd, the same mage and 3 skullcrushers, what would you suggest I fill the extra points with, I have about 6-7k in points so can fill it with anything from ogres to trolls to chimeras to hellstriders. In an ideal world what you use to support warrior bunker, shadow mage and skullcrushers?

Glad it's helpful! I love talking about this stuff. <3

I run a block of 24 MoK warriors with halberds. Holy #$(*@# do they murder stuff! Throwing out 24 S5 attacks is hilarious, and anything they run into is dead. Their big weakness is getting flanked and getting pulled out of position due to frenzy, so watch out for that, but if you're careful it's not much of an issue. Shields with them are also great if you can spare the points (which you should).

I see what you mean with Withering as well, that does make it a little more reliable. Against T3, if you get Withering off, you are guaranteed to wound on 2+ with your AHW warriors. Really nice. I think between that and Mindrazor you might have a bit more reliable of a shot, and that -1 to be hit is really nice as well as Enfeebling for defense against anything that might be nasty. Plus I like the shadowy flavor, that -1 to hit represents being cloaked by shadows nicely.

So if you ran your warriors as MoK with halberds, a shadow mage, and 3 skullcrushers... well, consider this. You don't really want your mage with the warriors if you can help it. He's going to cut down on their damage output, and will make you hesitate to engage an enemy that might present a nasty challenge and gank your sorceror. He's no slouch in combat, certainly, but you could do better.

If you want to stick with a shadow mage, consider including a unit of Hellstriders, marking the mage with Slaanesh, and putting him with the unit. Hellstriders are stupidly fast and are guaranteed to not run away, so you should be able to keep them alive for the whole game as long as you're aware of their position at all times. They make nice flankers and chaff clearers with the bonuses they get for wiping out units, and the sorceror's combat prowess is decent relative to the unit in this case.

Khorne halberds are killy, Skullcrushers are killy, and both units hate being flanked. The solution here is two Gorebeast Chariots. They are your flank protection. Run them on either side and move them up, pointing them towards any direction where you want your enemy to NOT move into. If they do, they get a gorebeast to the face. If they don't, your flanks are safe.

The final icing is 10 dogs. Maybe 15 if you have 30 points you don't know what else to do with. They're great naked for hobbling enemy movement, providing mobile hard cover, and offering more deployment flexibility by placing them first. You never want to leave home without at least two units of 5 warhounds.

So your list might look like this:



Skullcrushers and Hellstriders take flanks, Gorebeasts escort the warriors and protect their flank while they try and get into face-to-face combat for the murder happy time to commence. Hellstriders start with 3 ranks, plenty of fodder to chew through if they focus shooting and they're surprisingly good in combat against regular rank and file, and fantastic at chasing down and killing chaff. The sorceror will have a 1+ armor save, so should be completely fine in any combat that you're willing to put the Hellstriders in. You could also swap the MoK warriors with AHW MoN if you want, that's basically preference. Personally I can't get enough of my MoK blenders, though.

You could also consider Lore of Slaanesh. The leadership shenanigans are quite fun, and sticking Super Frenzy on your warrior block or the skullcrushers is pretty hilarious. The leadership debuff makes it possible to break Steadfast, which is often a problem. The signature and #6 are great for screwing with war machines and positioning. I've run an all Slaanesh list before and had a blast, but it would look very different than what you see here.

This is actually pretty similar to the list I'd run, though I'd change out the sorceror for a DP (which you can't in this case). My skeletal list always seems to start with MoK halberd block, gorebeasts, and skullcrushers when I can. So don't take this as gospel, I may be a little biased! I also wouldn't normally go for Hellstriders, but if you like Lore of Shadow (which is a fine lore indeed), it's a good way to get a sorceror both protected and where he needs to be.

If you want to go with the Chosen + Warshrine route, I'd be happy to toy around with list ideas for that as well. It'll be a little slower since only one unit can have Banner of Swiftness, but that's just a different direction to go, not necessarily worse.

That is fantastic advice! I'm glad I've found someone else who can talk for England about warhammer, more over the brothers from the north

I run 18 halbard khornes and 17 sword board tzentch in my 2400, and your right the killing potential for the warriors is truly disgusting! So I think my main bulk will be khorne warriors, flanked by 2 nurgle gorebeasts.

I always used to run dogs but feel I could invest thoose 30-40 points elsewhere more effectivly, so do aha! I did go through a phase of 14 hellstriders with a slaanesh blender hero leading them, egar to get them buffed and ready to slam into combat, but more and more I found them dieing to simple things my ironclad knights or skullcrushers would laugh off like d-elf crossbow, or any arrows to be blunt even a cheeky shems or fireball whittle them down significantly so I tended to avoid them.

Slaanesh lore is fun, but IMO nurgle does basically all of slaaneshes damage attacks better and more reliably than slaanesh, even though the random movement and frenzy are hysterical (no pun intended), nurgle is my go to lore usually, with a 3 spell unkillable tzeentch disk rider slaughtering with gateway and glean magic, plus I have converted a gorgeous model I love to use, but I digress.

I think in this case I will keep my lord in the unit in a demonic mount in a bunker of frothing khornaites flanked by nurgle gorebeasts, skullcrushers egar to prove themselves and have a bunker of nurgle choosen with a shrine, can you imagine + 1ws on them? Ws 7 nurgle? You need to be ws 4 to not be 6's to hit, or toughness, toughness 5 warriors? Most heros don't have thoose stats! Or of course the daemon Prince, but without banking on it too much

What do you think? What's your standard 2400? I'm itching to know

Sadly I'm an American redneck going out rustling cattle and all that in the middle of the desert. >.>

Dogs are really useful, I would recommend sparing the 60 points to get two units of them back in. They're subtle, but they're fantastic for drawing out deployment if nothing else. Put down dogs first, and you get at least two units of your enemy dedicated before you have to start putting down your real stuff. Also very handy for getting in the way and being general nuisances. They're definitely worth the ~3 warriors in cost. I'm heavily against giving them any upgrades, as I've been vocal about in another thread, but that's another topic.

For the Hellstriders, they are certainly squishy. The trick with them is that you can put them practically anywhere on the board at any time. They essentially have flying, except they still have to deal with terrain (though it's not that hard to get around since you have free reforms all over). That plus vanguard and you can have a nice threatening presence looming around without actually committing it until you're sure they're in a good spot. Trying to make them super killy and running them straight into combat will lead to sadness. Leave that to warriors and skullcrushers. If you want to give your hellstriders another try, try them with the sorceror and hold them back as more of a support unit than a main combat unit. You might be pleasantly surprised.

I too like Nurgle in general. It's a fantastic lore, all of the spells are rock solid, and it's great synergy with the army as a whole. I just wasn't sure how dedicated to the shadow thing you were. Again, I've had fun with my Slaanesh list of hypermobility, so it's not like it's a lost cause, and I really do love the lore. Still, Nurgle and Death are just so good, and it's easier to field them on a Nurgle DP.

I don't think keeping your lord on a mount with the warriors will end too badly. Not ideal, as you lose a LoS and you're taking up valuable frontage with the large mount footprint, but it could work.

Chosen Nurgle does sound hilarious. WS7 would be sickness. If you go with halberds, ending up with S5 T5 base infantry that's hit on 5s is a real possibility. Go for it! Just make sure you have at least 12, preferably even 18 if you can squeeze them in. S5 T5 infantry is a lot less scary when there's just six dudes staring at you. And yes, this is exactly what I meant by not banking on the DP. DP would be a great bonus, but if the block is strong with a variety of possible buffs then you're in good shape for an average game.

My standard 2500 (haven't made a 2400) is pretty unsubtle:

DP of Nurgle
- Level 4
- Flying
- Chaos Armor
- Sword of Striking
- Charmed Shield
- Dragonbane Gem
- Scaled Skin
- Soul Feeder
- Flaming Breath
- Lore of Nurgle

Exalted Hero of Tzeentch
- BSB
- Disc of Tzeentch
- Enchanted Shield
- Talisman of Preservation
- Third eye of Tzeentch
- Great weapon

24x Warriors of Khorne
- Standard (Banner of Swiftness)
- Musician
- Halberds + Shields

3x Gorebeast Chariot of Nurgle

2x Chaos Chariot of Nurgle

3x Skullcrushers of Khorne
- Ensorcelled Weapons
- Musician, Banner

3x Skullcrusheres of Khorne
- Ensorcelled Weapons
- Musician, Banner

5x Chaos Warhounds

It's about as straightforward as things get. Intersperse chariots with warriors and skullcrushers to protect flanks, move up and RIP AND TEAR.

If you're curious about my Slaanesh list, I posted it here. Would swap out the forsaken after testing them, they don't really fit the list as well as I hoped, but otherwise it's a blast to play as it's lightning fast and screws with enemy movement as well.