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I have never played warhammer before and money is tight and i am still not 100% sure on what armies or units i wish to buy.

with the price barrier in my way i was wanting to find a way to test the game and different models ect.

the plan i had was to make up in Photoshop some to size models to print out and play with.

im sure playing these at home with friends is fine but how would other players feel if i asked to play with them using my paper models.

they would be printed to be clear as to what they are and what they are equipped with.

if i explained that i have paper models so i can play test to see if i like it before i drop hundreds of dollars on my force would that be ok?

or would i be met with a negative reception?

also i am new here so apologies if this is the wrong place to post this, or if i got my definition of proxie wrong.

Unless with friends, I dont see this going well with other people. You could do this with maybe a unit or two after having the actual troops to try out some new things, But you will probably get a wtf look from a lot of people. Sorry I can't get a better answer for ya. I'd play ya, but not everyone is as easy going as I am

This is definitely the right place to ask, and personally I say you should fully explore "papercraft". There is so much that can be done, and done quite well!

However, it is likely that this kind of thing would only make sense to use with friends, rather than in games with strangers.

I can't imagine any friends not wanting to do that. Heck, guys here printed out paper models for Relic Knights to try the game out, since they hadn't delivered (and still haven't) the real ones.

Papercraft can be a great gateway to things like this, and there's a lot of high quality stuff on the web for it. Just stick to playing with friends with it and you can't go wrong

I wouldn't have a problem with it the first time or maybe even two. If you are dtill using them 6 months laterit would probably become one.

Ok cool thx for the answers.

Also i wouldn't be making full papercraft models, thats a lot or extra work, most units would most likely by say a base thats the appropriate size and a double sided picture of the correct model.

If i do print some out i can always ask i suppose.

But atm the basic army i'm looking at is gonna cost me about $512 just for the models then i need like glues, brushes and paints. and if i want to magnetize any parts theres those tools too, so im hoping to hold out as soon as i can to make sure what i buy is what i want.

i have about 2-3 friends that would be up to paper battles.

but the players in my area are older core gamers so i dont know how they would react.

You definitely would want to ask first, and volunteer the reasons why you're using paper stands instead of models.

With warning, you're likely to find people willing to say, "Sure, you want to see how the game goes," and probably volunteer advice and such. Without warning, you're going to have a lot of explaining to do.

Of course, depending on who you ask, you may be just as likely to be greeted by offers to lend you an army to try playing for a game. "Hey, you don't have to use paper cutouts. Let me lend you these guys so you can see how the game works...."

Of course, paradoxically, the more time and effort you put into those paper substitutes, and the better they end up looking, the more serious about the hobby you're going to appear. And if you look like you're going to be serious about it, that'll probably also improve the responses you get.

If you're doing it as a testing/learning game and make it clear that the paper models are only temporary then most people will probably let a newbie try the game with paper models. However, if you keep playing with those paper models and don't make a legitimate effort to build a real army their patience isn't going to last forever.

Do it as long as you need to but you will soon want the real thing if you get into it.

I'd be dubious about their usage with 'randoms' but there is no reason your mates will rebuke that request.
This is especially true if you are all learning and want to hammer out a purchasing plan before you drop a huge amount of cash on it. I bought some units that I hardly use simply because I didn't playtest with them, and now find that I don't really like their style.

i have never played before and the only friend i have that has hasnt for about 15+ years he used to play undead in primary school.

so his experience is near 0 now.
sure at homes fine but playing some games with randoms was more to make sure i have the rules down properly odds are we try play with our interpretation we will get stuff wrong.

ill def be buying slowly if i like the game so ill be slowly building as i play.

hopefully the guys at my local shop are into teaching me when i use paper models.

My group proxies frequently if we don't have the money for models. From a "trying out" standpoint, and especially if you actually WERE trying things out for a few games, and then slowly buying the units you knew you wanted, I'd be perfectly okay with it (and probably actually encourage it as a money saver). It'd just be a matter, for me, of making sure you actually did get models eventually.

The problem is going to be randoms with people you don't know, very few people will probably allow that would be my guess. But, it can never hurt to ask!

all they can say is no.

and if they try give me a hard time ill make sure they get it back just as much.

Can anyone remember the card board cut out Ork Dreadnought GW put in the 2nd ed boxed set?

'To let you play with cool stuff in the game, while you save up to buy the awesome metal minatures!'

There is nothing wrong with using 'more cost effective ' counters in the game while you decide if you like it or not.

I almost feel like the usage of paper miniatures is a different hobby. There is so much cool stuff you can do with them, but generally most people with proper miniatures will not like playing against someone who doesn't also use proper miniatures. I guess it comes down to the whole "I paid $500 for this army to play this game, and I don't like the fact that you are also playing this game but without spending as much as I did". Or something. I personally don't really understand the animosity people have against proxies in wargaming. It sort of reeks of elitism to me, though perhaps I just have a fundamentally different approach/understanding of the hobby. I just don't see what the big deal is if one guy plays with his plastic toy soldiers, while the other guy uses his paper toy soldiers. It is a game after all. However that being said, I do agree that there is a visual difference that may be a bit jarring or distasteful.
I think the best scenario is when either both players use traditional plastic/metal miniatures, OR both players use paper miniatures. It does look and feel more cohesive (and will likely help avoid animosity) if both players use miniatures made from the same materials. Like others here have said, I would not recommend trying to play pick up games with random strangers with a paper army.

KirbyFan wrote:
I guess it comes down to the whole "I paid $500 for this army to play this game, and I don't like the fact that you are also playing this game but without spending as much as I did".

No, it comes down to "I put the time and effort into building a fully painted army, so I expect you to do your part in completing an awesome looking battle". The simple fact is that paper models don't look as nice as the real ones*, so it's entirely legitimate to dislike them in a game where the fluff/models are so important. If you're going to play with paper tokens and neglect those aspects you might as well play a game with rules that don't suck instead.

*Yes, there are a few people who can scratchbuild stuff as good as the real model, but those are a tiny and irrelevant minority. The vast majority of paper models are lazy proxies.

i am planning on buying models but at this time i dont have the money to drop on the game and when i am not 100% set on what race or set up i am going to play with ill use my lazy paper models (90% of the time at home with friends) but i do want to try and have some seasoned play me so i can make sure i got the rules right.

its not that im lazy or have anything against the game its just im poor and cannot afford to waste hundreds of dollars on minis i may not use.

personally i wouldnt mind playing people using paper models as long as its easy to tell whats what, its still playing the game.

 Peregrine wrote:

KirbyFan wrote:
I guess it comes down to the whole "I paid $500 for this army to play this game, and I don't like the fact that you are also playing this game but without spending as much as I did".

No, it comes down to "I put the time and effort into building a fully painted army, so I expect you to do your part in completing an awesome looking battle". The simple fact is that paper models don't look as nice as the real ones*, so it's entirely legitimate to dislike them in a game where the fluff/models are so important. If you're going to play with paper tokens and neglect those aspects you might as well play a game with rules that don't suck instead.

*Yes, there are a few people who can scratchbuild stuff as good as the real model, but those are a tiny and irrelevant minority. The vast majority of paper models are lazy proxies.

Yeah, I can see how that would be an issue. I also agree that the miniatures are the central appeal when it comes to games like 40k or WFB. However, I have seen people play games like Warmahordes, D&D, or Hordes of the Things (old school abstract wargame) using tokens/counters, but then again these games are a lot more mentally engaging than most GW games*, so the emphasis from the get-go is on the depth of gameplay afforded by the rules. Like I said before, in the end it's best if both players use miniatures made from the same materials.



*I actually think the smaller scale stuff (Epic and Warmaster) are totally fine with paper minis/counters. I have seen quite many people play the game with color images of formations or artwork glued onto bases. I think this works so well because of the greater degree of abstraction towards a battle that the game presents.


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 Okottekoneko wrote:
i am planning on buying models but at this time i dont have the money to drop on the game and when i am not 100% set on what race or set up i am going to play with ill use my lazy paper models (90% of the time at home with friends) but i do want to try and have some seasoned play me so i can make sure i got the rules right.

its not that im lazy or have anything against the game its just im poor and cannot afford to waste hundreds of dollars on minis i may not use.

personally i wouldnt mind playing people using paper models as long as its easy to tell whats what, its still playing the game.

I totally understand the financial issues. Also, some people are simply not interested in the miniature aspect of the hobby (if have a friend like that). I think in your situation its best to play against people you are friends with. I personally would have no problem playing against you, but I think most people would take issue with it. But this also depends on your local gaming community.

well even if i do drop some cash to build an army and show up, how much resistance do you think i would get being a noob player not 100% sure on the rules?

are players more laid back?

my local area has a very small number of older core WHF players, i could play 40k or warmachine that have significantly larger player bases but something about fantasy just seems so much more appealing to me.

but im worried if i do rock up proxies or no ill be turned down just because i dont know the game.

also FYI im wanting at this time to build a WoC force focussed on khorne as a theme, im big on themes even with other games i only like to build theme decks when i play MTG and i love that about warhammer its got such cool lore and great themes to work with.

If money is an issue and you're wanting to play warhammer fantasy, be sure to check out the Mantic Games miniatures for kings of war.

$75 can get you a full army of up to 110 miniatures, fully compatible with warhammer (correct base sizes and everything, most unit types are covered for core infantry and cavalry).

They're a great alternative that is sold for a quarter of the price of Games Workshop, and not bad minis either.

This page has a good example of the kind of price difference: http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/kings-of-war/getting-started.html

Quite often you can buy the expensive horde infantry units from Mantic and then finish off with a few special units/ characters from GW to complete the army.

They're great for getting started with and actual minis will be accepted a lot more than paper. Paper will give people some pause, but if you have minis that's fine, if they're painted, even better.

The only drawback I guess is that you wouldn't be able to do the WoC Khorne army, unless you used the abyssal dwarfs as count-as.

Avatars of War is worth a look for chaos, not quite as affordable as Mantic, but still less than GW. They can be a bit hard to get hold of though.

Rule of Cool: If it looks great, keep using it.

Otherwise, ask to borrow an army, or proxy with cheap-but-similar models.

I'd play against you if you had paper models, as it lets you proxy the models you want to get. If the reason is to test before you buy, no problem.
If it's the same paper proxies 3 games later, and nothing has changed, that's going to start getting annoying. Throw in a model or two as you go, and substitute them for 'proper' models as you get them.

Paper and proxy has its place, but most people will not like to see the same paper army again and again.

thx scarletsquig for the links ill give them a try if i need cheap minis.

but its definately not a long term plan having paper minis, ill be getting the minis as i can afford them once i can afford them. models that may stay paper for longer would be hell cannons ($96 each) scull crushers ($91 for 3) and a khorne lord on juggernaut ($83)

like i said a basic full force is going to cost $500+ and thats going to take some time to get.

if i did come down with paper minis it would only be on that 1 day to test armies and if i like ill start buying, so if they did see me again i would have at least most of my army.

I'd be fine with it I don't know if I could afford to get into the hobby if I was starting out.

Wargames are a visual and tactile experience so having models is quite an important aspect to almost any game so having tokens (however nicely printed) will take away from the game and the spectacle. There are knobends that will object because they have spent money on an army but most will object on the experience front and I think that this is fair enough in public.

If I was you Op i would contact a club. If the Aussie clubs are anything like the UK ones then new players are positively encouraged and part of this will be the availability of Armies to try games out with. It may not be the killer Army of your dreams but it will enable you to get some games while you build your own force.

The other good thing about clubs is that players often tire of an army and will look to sell to members and decent prices.

The other ting to do if you any your mates are all in the same boat is look at a skirmish game instead. I Warhammer is the goal then the rules for Necromunda and Mordhiem are freely available and you can run warbands for less than £20 each or with whatever models you have. Meanwhile you can build up your Army at your leisure, introducing newly finished models as you go. There are of course many many other skirmish scale games about.

I'd say if you are going to do it, buy a token box or two of miniatures just to show you have the willingness to buy into the hobby and most people would be fine with it. Personally, I would have no problem with paper miniatures , especially if after i kill them I get to crush your paper cut out

 Okottekoneko wrote:
how much resistance do you think i would get being a noob player not 100% sure on the rules?

are players more laid back?

Anyone that's a jerk to a new player in their hobby is not someone you'd want to play with, anyway. Most gamers I've met, while a bit socially awkward, are not ass hats.

apart from that kronk guy, he's only nice if there is a lady in the room

Jokes aside I agree with the sentiment. If someone doesn't have the money available initially people shouldn't hang crap on them because chances are their 1 box of miniatures every 2-3 months which will get painted will look way better than the elitists hordes of grey.Also as gamers do we really need to reject people from the hobby because they do not have the right clothes/toys/ect.

when i get an army list sorted ill probably start grabbing basic lots of units like chaos warriors to start so i show up with some minis so it doesnt look too bad, ill most likely give them a basic paint job too.

the WFB group at my local store is small so i am hoping they are happy just to see a new face wanting to start playing to add to their numbers.

Rather than using a photo of the models, I really recommend using papercraft models - there are some decent ones on the market, and they are fairly inexpensive.

Using something that looks like you couldn't be bothered to try to get something decent on the table makes it less likely that somebody will be willing to play you.

I have used One Monk (now Mayhem in Paper) models - and if you want to see if they will fill the need there are free (yes, - FREE) models to let you get a feel.


Including an entire unit of pirate skeletons.

Look under the Hoards (organized by year) and Downloads for the freebies - there are a fair number of them.

A PDF for a unit typically runs about $3 US.

The Auld Grump

 Peregrine wrote:

KirbyFan wrote:
I guess it comes down to the whole "I paid $500 for this army to play this game, and I don't like the fact that you are also playing this game but without spending as much as I did".

No, it comes down to "I put the time and effort into building a fully painted army, so I expect you to do your part in completing an awesome looking battle". The simple fact is that paper models don't look as nice as the real ones*, so it's entirely legitimate to dislike them in a game where the fluff/models are so important. If you're going to play with paper tokens and neglect those aspects you might as well play a game with rules that don't suck instead.

*Yes, there are a few people who can scratchbuild stuff as good as the real model, but those are a tiny and irrelevant minority. The vast majority of paper models are lazy proxies.

While you do have a point, it is entirely your perogative to buy, build, and paint your own models. Someone who likes the game but doesn't have the money or time to buy, build, and paint enough models for a decent sized-game shouldn't be shamed because of it. If you're using them to test out new models that just got released, then go for it. If you're using them because you're broke, go for it.

Of course, if you signed up for a huge campaign and you show up with paper, that's going to raise some eyebrows. You play friendly games with paper models. That's pretty much it. Unless you make hand-crafted 3D paper models. Those are cool.

Or if you play with 'official' GW paper models (remember kids all GW models remain legal)

still got my paper highlanders from McDeath

(more seriously the majority above have it right, proxy to see if you enjoy the game, then start replacing them paper with kits as you can afford them)