Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Just a curiosity this because they're like the most hated army in this edition presently.

I'd like to go on record and say i think assault is still mostly fine the way it is and i dont agree with all the gripes but... you know.

Now i don't think that all the changes are bad. Overwatch is fine, random charge length is fine however i do feel that maybe the charge should be rolled before overwatch so you can see if they were successful or not. I'd rather that than just saying "i'm gonna charge you," then person B shooting you and saying "not any more your not." at least this way your committing to the action first.

If outflank/scout assault was still possible etc.

So if there weren't so many 'nerfs' to assault in 6th ED would the Tau be less hated, or are we just doomed?

The whole point of doing overwatch, before rolling for charge distance is to make it more likely that you'll fail your charge roll. There are some units that badly need some special rules to allow them to charge the turn they come on. (( Yes I'm looking at you Genestealers )) but then I got into the game again just as 6th was being released, so I don't know 5th as well as I know 6th.

Tau are just one of those armies, that you either love them, or you hate the space communists. A lot of the rage directed at them, is the fact that they can get high strength, low AP large blasts, that ignore cover, so people used to getting armor saves (like Space marines) are now having a hard time dealing with them.

Tau were hated even when they were the unquestionably weakest codex in the game and the only thing going for them was OP broadsides, while everything else was overcosted, sometimes by huge factors.

Last codex had weaker burst cannons, weaker pulse carbines, weaker EMP grenades, less versatile and less equipped crisis suits, ethereal were outright harmful to have, etc...
Almost everything costed more-and had less.

The tau hate has NOTHING to do with power, its just that some people cant accept their whole being in the 40K universe.
Yaknow, someone who is actually trying to be good, and not outright "OMG SO GRIMDARK!" somehow ruins their galaxy.

Not to mention that the hardcore assault lovers seem to find it somehow wrong that somebody is trying to AVOID combat, rather then jump at them with his own assault units.

Assault was nerfed hard, you know why?
Because last edition, a SINGLE squad of the not-too-impressive assault marines, could wipe out an entire shooter army, without the shooter even getting a chance to respond. ("Wiped your squad? great, consolidate into another, fight, you can't shoot me, and got no chance to win combat.")

And still, some of the major dominant lists are assault oriented.
Just showing you that assault itself works perfectly fine, just not dumb "I got a handful of marines running at you" assault, you need to actually support your assault elements.

 BoomWolf wrote:

Yaknow, someone who is actually trying to be good, and not outright "OMG SO GRIMDARK!" somehow ruins their galaxy.

Well, truth to be told, Im no Tau hater, but their fluff and visual style isnt something I would expect and like in WH40K. They scream to me "we must add another faction!" (despite fact that they are here "few" years, I know ) and all the mecha irritates me. On the other hand, I think that their "we are gooooood" is probably another face of grimdark, just GW didnt evolve the story to show their brainwashing etc.

Still, no Tau hater, just dont like them much, but whatever, many people loves Tau, so enjoy

I have played Tau all through 4th, 5th and now 6th edition.

The actual Codex did not change a lot. Stuff got cheaper and wa got a Riptide. We lost the ability to bump Crisis Suits to BS 4 but did gain a good ability to twin link / ignore cover and our markerlight system has gotten a tad better.

The biggest issue with Tau for other players are two fold in my opinion.

Tau used to be unknown to most. Nobody played it and when they did, a single mistake meant that you lost the game.
In order to be a good Tau player, you had to know every rule, every loophole and had to watch for mistakes. This nurtured a Tau player that had to be a good general in order to win a game.

Now that we have a new codex, everything is looking a lot better. Units are viable and the gunline Tau can hold their own. If we couple this with the same player from a previous edition, you have a tough nut to crack.

Tau are balanced in my opinion. I have won, I have lost.
The only difference is that we are now the most recent codex and other mainstay armies aren't anymore.
And this makes Tau unbalanced against the more older codices ( poor poor niddies...)

I honestly think that Eldar, Eldar/Tau, Tau/Eldar & Daemons earn far more hatred than just Tau by their little 'ol selves.

I also think that a bigger issue is that last edition, Loyalist Marines & Guard were the undisputed kings and Xenos armies were laughably outclassed for the most part. Marine players got used to just batting an eyelash at the likes of Tau/Eldar/'Nids/Daemons/Oldcrons and watching them fall over.
Now that we're all mostly updated instead of floundering with 10+ year old rules, (Just Orks & 'Nids left out in the old!), Xenos as a whole kicks arse and can compete with Marines & even table them.

Spoiled, over entitled Marines players are now having to learn a new game where Xenos armies are on an even footing and sometimes slightly above.

I am fine with Tau except I think the Riptide is just a bit too good - the sheer durability of it is immense/overwhelming - if it had been armour 3+ like the Wraith Knight would have been I feel fairer.

Otherwise happy to play with my Tau army or against with my Imperial and Xenos armies.

I love the Firewarrior and Kroot models, but just don't like the aestetics of the Crisis Suits/Broadsides - and far prefer the look of the FW Riptide

I am ok with the new Tau (I have played them twice; once with old eldar and squeaked a draw and the second time with new chaos marines and managed a bloody victory).

They are nasty when used well and kick out a horrendous amount of accurate ignoring cover shots when markerlighted.

I am also OK with the riptide (and other nasty units like heldrakes and wraithknights) as long as they are not spammed. One in a 1500pt list is ok (in fact I fought one the other night in 1500, it was nasty but manageable and I almost killed it).

I think the reason it has a 2+ save is because it only has T6 (unlike the T8 Wraithknight). It can also kill itself with the overcharging if you are unlucky.

Riptide also has a decent invulnerable save which it can boost plus often has Feel No Pain on top as icing on the cake...... its just a little too much IMO

Single ones you can sort of cope with by ignoring and trying to kill the rest of the army but mulitples are pretty horendeous.

I play against Tau weekly, as Tau a few times. Personally, the biggest problem I have with Tau is the fact that many of the Tau players I have seen simply sit still and shimmy tanks left and right only enough to get a jink save and a devilfish (and ethereal) slightly re-adjusting itself so that all the Fire Warriors are in triple tap bubbles. They are supposed to be this versatile ever changing, fluid army, but that doesn't translate into actual game play. The other issue is amount of ingore cover they throw around. I understand they pay through the nose for markerlights, but 3 or 4 markerlight hits to negate the cover save on my Nurgle Grinder so that a lone suit with extra BS and a single melta can take it out first try? That's a bit much. I liked the old Pathfinders (never thought I'd say that), or at least allow me to make some cover saves against markerlights. I can hide form a laser pointer can't I? Oh, and free (or nearly free) blacksun filters on damn near everything. Really? Just another way that Tau can get free cover without any drawback. Being bad at melee is irrelevant when no one can get into melee without charging through 12 flamers in a farsight bomb and 36 overwatch shots from 2 squads (each). They are too good at synergizing.

Riptides aren't a big issue for me. With some clever play and a few well-placed plasma guns can deal with him.

I've only played against a tau list once, and it was tough, but not cause for rage. However, some of my friends who play at the FLGS have other thoughts on tau, and I think the issues are largely in part due to the WAAC players that have been fielding them.

The big one is, nobody likes to play against a static gunline, no matter what the army is. Gunlines are dull to play against, and to many, gunlines are dull to play WITH. What do tau do better than just about any other army? Form gunlines! And with the supporting fire rule and marker lights, it makes assaulting a tau gunline a frustrating proposition. Now think about your typical WAAC player who changes armies every release? They don't bother to learn the sublty of the army, they just plop down the latest netlist and sit back and leave the army on autopilot. And their lists NEVER CHANGE, so if you play those guys, you are always playing against a Riptide and Broadside heavy gunline. Naturally, this will eventually lead other players to loathe playing aginst tau, and all tau players will get lumped into the stereotype. Just another example of a few rotten apples spoiling the whole bushel.

Experiment 626 wrote:
I honestly think that Eldar, Eldar/Tau, Tau/Eldar & Daemons earn far more hatred than just Tau by their little 'ol selves.

I also think that a bigger issue is that last edition, Loyalist Marines & Guard were the undisputed kings and Xenos armies were laughably outclassed for the most part. Marine players got used to just batting an eyelash at the likes of Tau/Eldar/'Nids/Daemons/Oldcrons and watching them fall over.
Now that we're all mostly updated instead of floundering with 10+ year old rules, (Just Orks & 'Nids left out in the old!), Xenos as a whole kicks arse and can compete with Marines & even table them.

Spoiled, over entitled Marines players are now having to learn a new game where Xenos armies are on an even footing and sometimes slightly above.

Yes. Because somehow it is always the fault of the Space Marines. Seriously? Why all the SM hate? I also think you are wrong. Most players also have a different army next to their SM.

I think a lot of the hate is because they terribly punish assault armies...who were already weaker during this edition (and mostly last edition as well.)

They just stack the odds so much against assault.

Most assault armies rely on cover (Tau can ignore this in large quantities.)

Ok then well I'll hide out of LOS...well Tau can ignore that in large ways as well.

Oh then even though I cannot assault out of reserve with most units...I'll deepstrike in or outflank up close to dimish fire power...oh Tau get interceptor for pretty cheap as well...

Oh and Thier entire army gets to overwatch...ok well I'll charge in a sacrificial unit to eat it...sorry no I don't have to overwatch that unit with units other than the charged unit...

Ok well at least its only BS 1....sorry again we can raise our BS using markerlights during overwatch....oh and a lot of stuff is twin linked as well.....


It is essentially that they can get so many special rules that negate many of the basic tactics in the game.

I feel like Tau should have gotten some of this but not all of it....I don't hate them for it...but it is a bit much.

If Markerlights did not work in overwatch (it happens to fast for them really to be effective). and went back to -1 cover per light...it would go a long way.

I would also just like in general if squads needed to pass a LD test to overwatch (not a big deal for most units) then you could have fear effect this test...making it actually useful.

Honestly, the only thing I would change in the entire Tau book is making markerlights affect cover like they used to.

For each light you reduce the cover save by one.

 ductvader wrote:
Honestly, the only thing I would change in the entire Tau book is making markerlights affect cover like they used to.

For each light you reduce the cover save by one.

I wouldn't mind so terribly much. 2 hits would still get rid of area terrain like it does now, and even a 2+ cover save going to 4+ would be a fine use of 2 markerlights. Along with the increased avalibility of them in the new codex I wouldn't have objected to this.

Of course that signature system that lets you get ignores cover would become more valuable as a result of that.

I dislike tau because they look lame and their fluff is stupid. Has nothing to do with how they perform in game, my daemons usually crush them.

 dementedwombat wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
Honestly, the only thing I would change in the entire Tau book is making markerlights affect cover like they used to.

For each light you reduce the cover save by one.

I wouldn't mind so terribly much. 2 hits would still get rid of area terrain like it does now, and even a 2+ cover save going to 4+ would be a fine use of 2 markerlights. Along with the increased avalibility of them in the new codex I wouldn't have objected to this.

Of course that signature system that lets you get ignores cover would become more valuable as a result of that.

Exactly, no reason to just straight up ignore it. It was just written to sell more pathfinders.

I hate screamstar, seerstar, and slaanesh. That's it

Markerlights aren't as bad as the Ignores Cover Chip, combined with an IC Riptide. Riptides and Chip Commanders, That's pretty much all the Tau have going for them at the moment.

Fire Warrior spam is tier 2 and easily countered with TFCs. Their troop choices are pretty weak.

Eldar are the real problem, imo.

People hate Tau because of the lack of interaction; you sit back and shoot, and if you shoot well enough you win. There isn't much interaction involved.

Yes, Tau will still be hated by me no matter the form & shapes they come in

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
I honestly think that Eldar, Eldar/Tau, Tau/Eldar & Daemons earn far more hatred than just Tau by their little 'ol selves.

I also think that a bigger issue is that last edition, Loyalist Marines & Guard were the undisputed kings and Xenos armies were laughably outclassed for the most part. Marine players got used to just batting an eyelash at the likes of Tau/Eldar/'Nids/Daemons/Oldcrons and watching them fall over.
Now that we're all mostly updated instead of floundering with 10+ year old rules, (Just Orks & 'Nids left out in the old!), Xenos as a whole kicks arse and can compete with Marines & even table them.

Spoiled, over entitled Marines players are now having to learn a new game where Xenos armies are on an even footing and sometimes slightly above.

Yes. Because somehow it is always the fault of the Space Marines. Seriously? Why all the SM hate? I also think you are wrong. Most players also have a different army next to their SM.

Last edition Imperial players in general had the best of everything and the top tier armies were ALL Loyalist codices... SW's, BA's, IG, GK's, they ruled the roost and playing a Xenos army overall was pretty much like trying to chew on a glass sandwich filled with nails.
Now that most of the Xenos books have been updated though, all of a sudden "Tau/Eldar/Daemons/Taudar/Eltau/Helldrakes" are no fun and are apparently needing to be heavily comped/banned. (Feast of Blades for example is literally telling Daemons to go suck a lemon in their 1st draft comp, while the Riptide is being hinted at being nerfed to a 0-1 choice!)

So yes, part of the problem is Marine players getting whiny again.
Equally part of the problem is that Tau just aren't fun to play against when they choose to simply gunline, Daemons are no fun when they plonk the 900+ pts Screamerstar down and Serpent spam Eldar are also a lesson in eating your pride and trying not to throw-up.

The thing is, last edition Xenos players overall either shelved their armies, or took it on the chin, or had their cries for comp shouted down...
Now that the roles are reversed though? That same group that laughed at comp as being 'for noobs' are now trying to push that it's needed again now that Xenos rule the roost.

Dalymiddleboro wrote:
I dislike tau because they look lame and their fluff is stupid. Has nothing to do with how they perform in game, my daemons usually crush them.

Damn.... Thats some harsh judgement. Also.... What kind of Daemon list do you play? Most competitive Tau armies laugh at FMCs.

I don't understand all the Tau hate. People should be hating on Eldar right now, looking at the big tourny results.

Lucarikx

I had more hate in the past with st 10 ap 1 broadsides.

Though now my friend hates my single riptide, not because its a Mc but because with a toolbelt commander and the ion, i blew up i think 2 Annbarges, 1 triarch stalker and stunned a ghost ark with no cover and stuff.

 UlrikDecado wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:

Yaknow, someone who is actually trying to be good, and not outright "OMG SO GRIMDARK!" somehow ruins their galaxy.

Well, truth to be told, Im no Tau hater, but their fluff and visual style isnt something I would expect and like in WH40K. They scream to me "we must add another faction!" (despite fact that they are here "few" years, I know ) and all the mecha irritates me. On the other hand, I think that their "we are gooooood" is probably another face of grimdark, just GW didnt evolve the story to show their brainwashing etc.

Still, no Tau hater, just dont like them much, but whatever, many people loves Tau, so enjoy

Yeah, I was around when the Tau first joined the 40K universe, and I just thought the whole Japanime look to the army was kinda silly. It was a very obvious demographic grab to get the other group of kids with the weird hair and the BESM pictures drawn on everything.

And this comes from a guy who grew up with the original Robotech (Macross) cartoon, and Battletech. So it wasn't like I hated the idea of mechs. The Tau aesthetic just seemed out of place for 40K.


Then I grew up and realized the Tau were Aldous Huxley's [i]Brave New World[i/] which is an awesome book, and then I wasn't sure whether or not I should like them.

BoomWolf wrote:Tau were hated even when they were the unquestionably weakest codex in the game

Well, they were never unquestioningly the weakest, but certainly they've been hated for many, many a year, regardless of their particular place on the power curve at any given time.

On the soft scores, they've always suffered from the anime aesthetic (and, more damningly, being a helvetica army in a chancery world), a pointless, poorly-thought-out fluff, and a player base that has a worse than usual reputation for whining and powergaming. On the hard scores, even when they've been low on power, their army has always been annoying to fight with. Mostly it's because tau have really only ever been able to gunline, and that's always been a tedious kind of army to play against, but also because tau have always had kind of "cheaty" things - whether Mass TL S10 Ap1 meaning you lose your best few units every game before they get to do anything, or whether it's been MSM which is ALWAYS frustrating to play against (and one of the worst mechanics in the game, IMO), or plasma guns that don't suffer get's hot, etc. etc.

What's so bad about tau now is that you take everything that people already hated about tau, and make it 10 times worse. Now they have MEGA-GUNDAMS. Now they gunline absurdly good and shut down anyone who isn't also a gunline (so they force you to play the most tedious play style as well, or suffer a frustrating experience trying to be relevant while your opponent debases the game to yahtzee). Now they have even MORE cheaty things, like ignoring cover saves, and hard-countering deepstrike, and ignoring night-fight, and ultra-overwatch, and psychic powers that don't need a psychic test. The list goes on and on of "well, tau are superior, so they just don't have to deal with these messy rules" thing.

Honestly, I think the main problem with tau is that they don't have any flaws. This is somewhat overlookable during times when they have the "flaw" of appearing underpowered in the codex cycle, but it certainly isn't now. There's no grittiness or darkness or uncertainty on the one hand, and there's no serious risks or real drawbacks to their playstyle (because "we're bad at assault" has always been an absurd fantasy). Since the beginning, it just doesn't feel like they fit into 40k.

Which is probably why in the other thread, there are almost more people who think tau should be booted out than every other army combined. You don't get rid of that kind of hatred with just a few little tweaks. Tau need a complete reboot to fix that. A reboot they're unlikely to ever get.

 UlrikDecado wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:

Yaknow, someone who is actually trying to be good, and not outright "OMG SO GRIMDARK!" somehow ruins their galaxy.

Well, truth to be told, Im no Tau hater, but their fluff and visual style isnt something I would expect and like in WH40K. They scream to me "we must add another faction!" (despite fact that they are here "few" years, I know ) and all the mecha irritates me. On the other hand, I think that their "we are gooooood" is probably another face of grimdark, just GW didnt evolve the story to show their brainwashing etc.

Still, no Tau hater, just dont like them much, but whatever, many people loves Tau, so enjoy

Funny, people keep thinking the Tau are good guys. But they are just another early stage Imperium. The Tau's motto is "For the Greater Good." Sounds nice, but for the "Greater Good" any atrocity, any extreme, can be justified.

I play Tyranids and for the most part of love the Tau. The animeish design, the backstory, the battlearmor, so much of it. I just don't like how anemic they make Space Marine look.

Sorry, I think that anyone who thinks Tau are 'good' isn't reading the fluff closely enough.

They're perhaps the most insidious faction in 40k, since their evil is so cunningly hidden. They manipulate, sideline, and enslave 'lesser' races. They are a frightening Orwellian brand of nasty in a setting not known for its subtlety. Personally, I love the Tau for precisely this reason.

As a side note, I don't think that Tau are the most hated faction by any stretch of the imagination. Aside from Marines, they seem like the most popular army for people to play, at least in my neck of the woods. Most people like the Tau army, in my experience, they just don't like some of the Tau players.

Before anyone brings it up again, they're a lot less "anime" than the emo space elves and their goth space elf friends - both which have long hair, eerily slim bodies and like to dance around waving freakishly long blades that can cut through everything...

 Jimsolo wrote:
Sorry, I think that anyone who thinks Tau are 'good' isn't reading the fluff closely enough.

They're perhaps the most insidious faction in 40k, since their evil is so cunningly hidden. They manipulate, sideline, and enslave 'lesser' races. They are a frightening Orwellian brand of nasty in a setting not known for its subtlety. Personally, I love the Tau for precisely this reason.

This, so much this!!!
One of the latest Ultramarine novels, 'Courage and Honour' reveals a great deal of just how manipulative and insidious the Tau really are.

I also love their sheer naivete and complete ignorance of just how god-awful a place the 41st millennium really is! They look down their collective noses at humanity being nothing more than overly superstitious morons who lack true civility, yet they;
- Fight a Champion of Slaanesh and his CSM warband, kill him and believe they've slain a Chaos God! (because Gods are a silly fabrication of less evolved cultures of course!)

- See a bunch of Tyranids ripping apart a research outpost, and decide, "hey, these guys look different, let's go and talk to them about joining the Greater Good!" (bad idea is obvious bad idea)

- Are getting the backsides handed to them, then meet a Haemonculus and his coven of twisted creations and agree to form an alliance, despite the gak-faced grins on the Dark Eldars' faces and the general chuckling of 'exactly, how bad can we be?!'... (then become the 'payment' for services rendered themselves!)

- Have yet to face a true Imperial Crusade, (because the IoM is busy dealing with much more serious issues, like Hive Fleet Leviathan, Abbadon's 13th Crusade, the Necrons waking up in greater numbers every other day, etc...), but believe humanity in general to be 'conquerable'. (because they have no concept of how vast the galaxy really is!)

It's awesome really, because despite their outlook towards the other races in general, they're arrogant and woefully unprepared for the real truth that they're completely ignorant of.

 Jimsolo wrote:
As a side note, I don't think that Tau are the most hated faction by any stretch of the imagination. Aside from Marines, they seem like the most popular army for people to play, at least in my neck of the woods. Most people like the Tau army, in my experience, they just don't like some of the Tau players.

That goes for every single army...
If all you ever face when playing against SW players for example is 'Hunter spam + Missile spam Long Wangs, then you'll be of the opinion that SW players are d*cks. Likewise, if the only list the local Daemon players run is Screamerstar or Flying Circus, then you'll likely think Daemon players are d*cks.

In a goodly number of areas, it seems that Tau players tend to gunline-up and abuse Riptides, hence a good portion of the hate.
Now as a Daemon player myself, I could honestly care less about Tau shenanigans, because I don't generally take to the air with my LoC, and my Tzeentchian minions have a complete field day exploding fish-goat-people with their psychic pyrotechnics because Tau lack any kind of psychic defense unless they ally something in. And all their fancy ignoring cover gimmicks mean squat because my saves are always invulns!
If I was playing my Sallies however, I'd probably find far less enjoyment getting blown to crap by those same gunlines my Daemons eat for lunch.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
Sorry, I think that anyone who thinks Tau are 'good' isn't reading the fluff closely enough.

They're perhaps the most insidious faction in 40k, since their evil is so cunningly hidden. They manipulate, sideline, and enslave 'lesser' races. They are a frightening Orwellian brand of nasty in a setting not known for its subtlety. Personally, I love the Tau for precisely this reason.

- Have yet to face a true Imperial Crusade, (because the IoM is busy dealing with much more serious issues, like Hive Fleet Leviathan, Abbadon's 13th Crusade, the Necrons waking up in greater numbers every other day, etc...), but believe humanity in general to be 'conquerable'. (because they have no concept of how vast the galaxy really is!)

To say the Tau haven't faced a "true" Imperial Crusade is entirely false and facetious. The Damocles Gulf Crusade was exactly that a crusade that was fought to a draw between both sides. Now if the Nids didn't show up it would have become a straight war of attrition which the Imperium would have won due to man power and resources. They haven't faced a Crusade back during the Golden Age of Man size strength crusade and probably never will. You are correct that the Imperium have much bigger threats to deal with at this point in time but the Tau are still a thorn in their side that eventually will cause more problem and headaches for the Imperium of man if left unchecked for long. (We will never know what happens as GW won't continue the timeline, which IMO they should do.