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 welshhoppo wrote:
i know the thing that put me off WHFB was the cost.

You need to buy so many models that it is a massive drain on your resources.

Then you need to actually assemble and paint the thousands of models, and that is a drain on your sanity instead.

That's pretty much put me off too; I've been tempted to start it up a few times, then start to price things up and go back to something else. My starting costs for a dwarf army (avoiding finecast) is easily £200+ and that's before I've even checked if I've got a legal army (Army book, 40 warriers, 40 quarrelers, 10 slayers, 1 lord, 1 engineer and 1 cannon comes to £161), then I'd still need to source a rule book (£15 on eBay, £45 BRB or £65 starter set).

For the same money I got 2 large ancients armies in 28mm, or 4 in 15mm, or at least 2 factions in any other game.

 Sidstyler wrote:
Are "unit fillers" generally accepted though? I'd imagine that some people would look down on that kind of thing, like with proxies. "Might as well play with cardboard chits!", that type of thing.

I'm sure the Warhammer World tournament pack puts some restriction on unit fillers (something like a unit must be less than 25% filler), as well as some rules as to what counts as things like zombies (such as an arm sticking out of the ground doesn't count). In a non-affiliated club/store, then I'm sure people won't mind.

Saldiven wrote:

Herzlos wrote:
That's pretty much put me off too; I've been tempted to start it up a few times, then start to price things up and go back to something else. My starting costs for a dwarf army (avoiding finecast) is easily £200+ and that's before I've even checked if I've got a legal army (Army book, 40 warriers, 40 quarrelers, 10 slayers, 1 lord, 1 engineer and 1 cannon comes to £161), then I'd still need to source a rule book (£15 on eBay, £45 BRB or £65 starter set).

Try starting with this:

http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/kings-of-war/dwarfs/product/thorgersons-storm-of-steel-135-figures.html

60 hand weapon and shield guys
40 crossbow or handgun guys
20 2-hand weapon guys
4 cannons (can alternatively be made into an organ gun)
(And ten dudes riding what look like huge badgers; might be worth something "counts as" in the new Army Book)

All for 99 pounds.

That's definitely what I'd be doing, using Mantic for the rank and file and Avatars Of War for the special stuff. I'll never get to play with it at Warhammer World but it'd be too much hassle to bring down anyway.

It still doesn't address the problem that "pure" Warhammer is just too expensive; the only way many people seem to consider starting it is via 3rd parties or the 2nd hand market, which can't be good for GW's bottom line.

 Cryonicleech wrote:
I don't buy into the concept that Warhammer is too expensive. I think the problem lies in the idea of what's considered "enough" to start.

Yeah, if you're looking to get an army you can get on the table within the week, it's expensive. But if you buy a unit, assemble it, and paint it, slowly adding things into your force, you can stretch out the amount of money you're spending on the game. Does that decrease the cost? No, of course not. But it makes the spending much more manageable. And sure, you'd have to wait longer until you have an army you can play, but the idea of investing $200-300+ in one burst in order to start seems silly.

So you're not saying it's too expensive to start; it's also too expensive and too long to start?

I could afford to create an army of 14 carat gold if I bought it slowly enough, that doesn't make it any cheaper than I bought it at once. I'm also pretty patient but I don't fancy the idea of spending months buying and assembling an army before I can use it, in the local meta that might mean the game has gone out of fashion before I even get a game.

Surely if I can get similar figures in the same scale and material (and occasionally the same sculpter) for a fraction of the cost, then it must be too expensive?

I'm looking at getting into a Fantasy escalation campaign (starting at about 500pts) but I'm probably not going to be using GW figures unless I am getting them for at least 30-40% off RRP, and even then they are still no cheaper than Mantic.

 Azazelx wrote:

 Cryonicleech wrote:

Yeah, if you're looking to get an army you can get on the table within the week, it's expensive. But if you buy a unit, assemble it, and paint it, slowly adding things into your force, you can stretch out the amount of money you're spending on the game. Does that decrease the cost? No, of course not. But it makes the spending much more manageable. And sure, you'd have to wait longer until you have an army you can play, but the idea of investing $200-300+ in one burst in order to start seems silly.

See, I view "buying into" a game that you won't actually be able to play for weeks or months to be even sillier. And I say this as someone who leans strongly on the modeller/painter side of the equation.

This is my view as well. With every other game I've bought into I've been playing it (with bare plastics, at least) within a couple of days. Flames Of War took an evening or 2 of clipping and gluing, 40K took a couple of evenings clipping and gluing, Empire Of The Dead took a couple of hours clipping and gluing (8 metals a side), and I was playing X-Wing after minutes.

Having something I can't play for months because I need so much of it just doesn't seem like a good idea to me when there's so many other systems I can buy into and be playing next week at my club.

Saldiven wrote:
I just want to interject that comparing pricing of WHFB to Infinity or Malifaux is not terribly accurate because they're not the same type game. It would be more accurate to compare Infinity or Malifaux to Mordheim.

Except that GW doesn't do small skirmish games anymore, all of the mentioned games take a similar amount of time to play, and when you boil it down to useable units (1 block of 40 infantry as a single controllable block) you get a similar number of things to push about the table and similar strategic depth (depending on your rules).

GW is pushing towards bigger games, whilst gamers are migrating towards smaller games.

That's certainly true to a point, but I'm also seeing a lot of people locally buying skirmish scale games; rather than having an army for a game or two they are collecting a faction for dozens of different games.

And that can only be a good thing in terms of variety

 azreal13 wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
Mass battle doesn't work at 28mm Heroic, otherwise this thread wouldn't exist.

Let's face it, nobody really plays for the spearman, archers or clan rats, it's all about the big gribblies and mass blocks of large regiments.

Perhaps go 15mm then, but any bigger and you start to lose the scope and manouvering opportunities that a smaller scale gives you on a 6'x4'

So why didn't Warmaster work?

And don't say "because GW dropped specialist games", because they wouldn't have done so if they were selling sufficiently.

You also have a bit of a chicken and egg situation there, did SG's not sell so GW dropped them, or would they have sold if they'd not be left to rot for years unsupported?

The specialist games all have a fatal drawback to GW; you don't need to buy so much of it, and/or it costs less. You can build a Necromunda gang or a Warmaster horde pretty cheap and then not have anything to buy. You have to spend a lot more for a complete Warhammer army. So they could have been doing well and GW killed them to pursue more profitable options.