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Does anyone have any tips for playing Iron hands at 1500pts?

Are you using the fancy sub-codex?

There are a couple of things you can do.

Tank/dread spam works well with IWND and repairing tech marines

Beatstick chapter master with lots of bikes is also good the FNP is nice but its still a 6+ so you can't rely on it but with T5 it gets better.

I have tried foot marine spam and its okay for IH but not great.

If you go the tank/dread route dpods will be a big thing to get the boys in close quickly while tank potshot from downfield.

Don't have the Clan R. supplement so I can't comment on that

Martel732 wrote:
Are you using the fancy sub-codex?

Just the normal rules.

IH would be great if vehicles weren't so.... meh. Dreads especially are really marginal. That hurts IH a lot.

So basically, IH turn into Ultramarines without Tiggy support. Yeah, the FNP is decent, but not saving enough troops to be a game changer. IWND on characters is strong, so a chapter master biker with the shield eternal is a good start.

I really like drop podding dreads and bringing up some bikes.

You want to play to your strengths, and take full advantage of the buffs, so here's what I'd recommend:

Drop Pod Ironclads, AV13 and IWND makes them very tough, and in multiples they can mess up the enemy backfield fast. Maybe one with flamers and one with melta, or 2 with one of each.

TFCs, very fluffy and also very effective. Don't make that much use of the repair rules, but I'd take at least 1 for IH, just to get another techmarine in.

If you don't go all-out on TFC, then Whirlwinds add cheaper anti-horde and AP4, as well as benefiting more from IWND. Similarly, Tri-las preds beat Devs with IH Chapter Tactics. Your HS should be mostly vehicles and artillery.

I think IH would do well with some kind of Land Raider based Deathstar. With IWND, AV14 all round and potentially a techmarine inside, that deathstar will hit the enemy intact. I'd suggest Honour Guard if you're taking a Chapter master (And with IWND he's very good. Chuck on the Shield Eternal and a Thunder Hammer for a real beatstick)

Can regular razorbacks take assault cannons like DA?

Dude, buying the codex would be the best start.

Jamo wrote:
Dude, buying the codex would be the best start.

I'll do that when I next get the chance.

Yes they can take assault cannons.

I would avoid assault cannons, as they are very overpriced.

I could see this being hard to take out at 1500pts and being a decent IH themed list.

MotF (warlord) - 145pts (with Tactical Squad C)
Shield Eternal, Melta Bomb

Chapalian - 90pts (with Tactical Squad C)

Techmarine - 80pts (with Tactical Squad A)
Servo-Harness, Melta Bomb

Techmarine - 80pts (with Tactical Squad B)
Servo-Harness, Melta Bomb

5x Tactical Squad A - 95pts (Riding in Land Raider A)
Melta Bomb, Flamer, Power Maul

5x Tactical Squad B - 95pts (Riding in Land Raider B)
Melta Bomb, Flamer, Power Maul

10x Tactical Squad C - 165pts (In Redeemer)
Melta Bomb, Flamer, Power Axe

Land Raider A - 250pts

Land Raider B - 250pts

Land Raider Redeemer -250pts
Multi-Melta

1500pts

I'm not sure three land raiders with weakling transportees is the best list for 1500 pts

For a Iron Hands list where each LR has a Techmarine in it to make repairs and the 'It will not die' rule? Those LRs should be nearly impossible to blow up, and your not going to glance them to death.

Plus the Warlord is really hard to kill with a 2+/3++ with a 6+ FNP and a chance to get a wound back every turn. All the Tech guys count as having a flamer, plasma cutter, and power fist meaning double flamer in every squad and two power weapons (axes/mauls/fists).

If I had 1850pts, the 10 man Tactical in the Redeemer would be a 5 man TH/SS squad with maybe some Scouts added in to camp rear objectives. But with the points I had, 3 Land Raiders and 3 Techmarine types where the best I could pull off.

The three land raiders isn't an issue with your list mate its the fact that what they carry doesn't merit their points cost, I could see dropping three ironclads turn one being very strong with a couple of five man squads in pods coming down turn two, the chapter master biker build is very strong as well. Only problem is he clocks in at the price of a land raider

You can still do that. Take away: chaplain, powermauls in sqauds A and B, Tactical squad C. Gives 285pts. Add: 5 scouts with snipers, 5 assault termis with th/ss.
Now drop flamers and mbs on tac squads (they are only there for scoring anyway). Change LRs to crusaders and give them mms so they can get sh*t done. Asaault cannon and mm are arguably better tank killers than 2 lascannons. 2 hurricanes are without a doubt better infantry killers than a hb.
This list will suffer against meltas and mcs but otherwise will keep the scoring alive long enough to, errrr score (hide the scouts).
Its all down to whether IH 3 Landraiders with IWND and a techmarine in each is better than the 4 that BA can do with the same tactic at 1500pts.

Martel732 wrote:
I would avoid assault cannons, as they are very overpriced.

We've covered this in a previous thread, but this is not a correct statement. Or at least, in the context of choosing a weapon for the razorback this is not a correct statement.

Often the assault cannons are marginally superior to the lascannons, if you are able to mitigate the range difference.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I use an Iron hands list featuring my TH/SS with librarian hammer unit in an LRR.

Predators, razorbacks and really as many vehicles as you can fit in take advantage of the IWND works moderately well.

I wouldn't say an AV spam IH army is top dog or anything, but it can hang with all but the top tier of competitive lists.

I'd highly highly recommend using the fancy Raukaan supplement if you go Iron Hands. Pretty much the only reason not to is if you just looooooove the Burning Blade or Teeth of Terra.

Here's a list you can pull at 1500 using the Raukaan rules:

HEADQUARTERS

master of the forge on motorcycle w/ the gorgon's chain & ironstone
185 pts

TROOPS

5x tactical marines w/ plasmagun
techmarine w/ servo harness
sergeant w/ plasma pistol
razorback w/ twin-linked lascannon & dozer blade
250 pts

5x tactical marines w/ plasmagun
techmarine w/ servo harness
sergeant w/ plasma pistol
razorback w/ twin-linked lascannon & dozer blade
250 pts

5x tactical marines w/ plasmagun
techmarine w/ servo harness
sergeant w/ plasma pistol
razorback w/ twin-linked lascannon & dozer blade
250 pts

5x scouts
sergeant w/ bolt pistol & close combat weapon
landspeeder storm w/ heavy flamer
100 pts

5x scouts
sergeant w/ bolt pistol & close combat weapon
landspeeder storm w/ heavy flamer
100 pts

HEAVY SUPPORT

twin-linked lascannon predator w/ lascannon sponsons & dozer blade
145 pts

twin-linked lascannon predator w/ lascannon sponsons & dozer blade
145 pts

hunter (skyspear missiles) w/ dozer blade
75 pts

And lo, an Iron Hands armored column with 4+ IWND near the MOTF and techmarines inside your transports, making them even harder to kill.

I'll try knocking up a list when I get the book.

"We've covered this in a previous thread, but this is not a correct statement. Or at least, in the context of choosing a weapon for the razorback this is not a correct statement. "

Not exactly. We are no longer discussing fliers. There is a lot of merit to a 48" weapon over a 24" weapon for an AV 11 vehicle. It's not about getting your shots off, it's about surviving what comes back at you. I think being able to stay out of the range of grav cannons is kind of nice. But maybe I'm just crazy and really *didn't* beat all those C:SM lists.

The reason Eldar are such a nightmare? Weapons that project mass wounds out to *36"* that can scoot and shoot. If they were only 24", they'd have to put themselves in a lot more harm's way. But they don't. This is why the scatter laser is leagues better than the assault cannon. Yes, I know this is not choice for imperials, but demonstrates why I think the assault cannon is utter garbage.

My god get off comparing the assault cannon to the scatter lazer. They are not the same weapon, each with pros and cons. Since they are not ever in competition with each other in terms of making an option selection, the comparison is moot and essentially irrelevant.

Please stop bringing up scatter lasers vs assault cannons - the comparison has no useful purpose.

I notice you didn't address the other parts of my post. And it IS a useful comparison in that it shows the inferiority of Imperial weapons vs Xenos. I won't stop bringing up the truth.

Okay so I guess we need to stop playing Imperial armies since they are inferior? That is the only useful conclusion one could derive from your comparison.

Otherwise, I did address the rest of your post - you didn't notice because it was already addressed in the prior post.

"Often the assault cannons are marginally superior to the lascannons, if you are able to mitigate the range difference. "

This applies to offense and defense, in case you thought I was refering to only one.

You seem to be saying that the lascannon is always better than the assault cannons, when that is simply not true. I've showed you the math to prove it, but then you change the topic to "well scatter lasers are better".

What I'm saying is that there is a non-automatic choice here between lascannons and assault cannons, and there are many good reasons for taking some assault cannons.

I personally field 2 assault cannon razorbacks and 1 lascannon razorback in my IH army. The assault cannon razorbacks have always been more reliable for damage turn over turn, even if they tend not to deviate as high in damage (less explodes/instagib).

OMG dude. It's not the damage output I'm questioning. It's putting my ground unit/vehicle in harm's way to get the 24" shot off. 48" lascannons outrange quit a few weapons, which is a very significant thing on non-fliers.

In fact, I probably have more experience with this than most because Baal preds are stuck with ACs are their main weapon and using the stupid AC exposes the side AV 11 constantly. If the Baal had a scatter laser-esque weapon instead, it would be much more formidable. So I guess my scatter laser comparisons are showing what the AC would need to be like to actually be good. It would still cost too much though, so it would have actually have to be better than the scatter laser to justify the price.

Make no mistake, the lascannon isn't that great now as well because ROF 1 heavies don't cut it vs wave serpents and riptides. But I might be able to get more shots off.

Imperial weapons are more appropriately priced in the IG codex if I recall. The surcharge for marines compared to Xenos is pretty unbalanced.

Okay, so we should play IG or Xenos. Thanks for the help on how to do an IH army.

 Dracos wrote:
Okay, so we should play IG or Xenos. Thanks for the help on how to do an IH army.

I'm advocating lascannons over ACs on ground vehicles to give them more movement options. If you want to take advantage of IWND on marines' crappy ass vehicles, then they need to not go from there to not there in a single turn. Staying at long range maximizes your chances of doing this.

If the AC caused some amazing amount of damage, I'd agree with it being worth it. But it's just not.

And yes, at this point, I would advocate IG or Xenos over a marine list to a new player in a heart beat. It's only going to get worse for power armor as 6th chugs along.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 j31c3n wrote:
I'd highly highly recommend using the fancy Raukaan supplement if you go Iron Hands. Pretty much the only reason not to is if you just looooooove the Burning Blade or Teeth of Terra.

Here's a list you can pull at 1500 using the Raukaan rules:

HEADQUARTERS

master of the forge on motorcycle w/ the gorgon's chain & ironstone
185 pts

TROOPS

5x tactical marines w/ plasmagun
techmarine w/ servo harness
sergeant w/ plasma pistol
razorback w/ twin-linked lascannon & dozer blade
250 pts

5x tactical marines w/ plasmagun
techmarine w/ servo harness
sergeant w/ plasma pistol
razorback w/ twin-linked lascannon & dozer blade
250 pts

5x tactical marines w/ plasmagun
techmarine w/ servo harness
sergeant w/ plasma pistol
razorback w/ twin-linked lascannon & dozer blade
250 pts

5x scouts
sergeant w/ bolt pistol & close combat weapon
landspeeder storm w/ heavy flamer
100 pts

5x scouts
sergeant w/ bolt pistol & close combat weapon
landspeeder storm w/ heavy flamer
100 pts

HEAVY SUPPORT

twin-linked lascannon predator w/ lascannon sponsons & dozer blade
145 pts

twin-linked lascannon predator w/ lascannon sponsons & dozer blade
145 pts

hunter (skyspear missiles) w/ dozer blade
75 pts

And lo, an Iron Hands armored column with 4+ IWND near the MOTF and techmarines inside your transports, making them even harder to kill.

This is actually pretty good, Although I would try to squeeze in 2 X stalkers at 1.5K instead of the single hunter.

Stop the press. Something to do with marines that Martel said was good. Lol

Jamo wrote:
Stop the press. Something to do with marines that Martel said was good. Lol

Should I put it in my sig that he liked a list of mine?

I actually aren't as critical of lists as I am of GW. But the Stalker still needs to go in.