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hi, forgive my stupidity, but can someone tell me how armour saves and invulnerable and cover saves work with grav guns in the new SM codex please?

Let's say a necron target has 4+ save, so it wounds on a 4+ and dies immediately - same for a lord with a 2+ save (dies auto on a 2+ to wound roll?)

Thanks,

FF

It only works on armour saves.
We don't know how it works on units with mixed armour saves.

For the rest, the entry in the codex tells you how it works.

The most logical way for mixed saves is to use the majority, same as Toughness, or weapons that wound against Leadership.

 Happyjew wrote:
The most logical way for mixed saves is to use the majority, same as Toughness, or weapons that wound against Leadership.

This is correct.

Also, infantry units get their cover and invulnerable saves normally, but there is an argument over whether or not vehicles get cover saves (and invulnerable saves too, I'd wager). You can find several threads that discuss it here on dakka, at great length and repetition.

Hang on.

We know exactly how to deal with a unit with mixed armour save.
We roll the relevant save(s) for the closest model(s). Once we start hitting models with a different save....we start using that save.

Steelmage99,

What you are quoting is the rules for resolving Wounds vs Armour Saves.

The grav-gun is unique in the way it calculates wounds as it uses the units Armour Save instead of it's Toughness Characteristic to calculate if you Wound or not. Sadly the book does a terrible job of explaining how you are meant to treat units with mixed Armour Saves, as all the calculations presented deal with it as if there was only a single value on all the models hit. With Majority Toughness you take the majority, so many people suggest doing that here, but there is no real Rule as Written telling us to do this. There is the possibility of resolving each Hit sequentially and to completion, but there is nothing within the rules giving us instructions on how to go about doing that either.

Oh, yeah. That was the part of this equation that I missed.

Never mind me.

 Happyjew wrote:
The most logical way for mixed saves is to use the majority, same as Toughness, or weapons that wound against Leadership.

You'd think that, but the guys over at GW seemed to have this notion about rolling to wound one model at a time instead of just rolling your saves. I know this is completely contradictory to what the BRB says but it seems to me that was their thought process on condemner bolt guns and something else I can't quite remember (maybe be remembering nothing) lately. Who knows if thats not what they expected us to do with mixed armor saves. Then there is the even more complicated debate of when you have to pick a save as a tie breaker, do you pick the better save or the worst save? There is a good reason to want to pick either one.

in the case of grav guns I would be more inclined to resolve each hit seperatly in as fast a method as possible.

for example.

10 marines and a captain in 2+ armour (lets pretend he doesn't have an invul save adn that the unit is not in cover at this time)

the captin is placed 3 models into the unit from the firing units location and the unit's sargent is next to him on the far side.

lets use centurians with grav canons and say there are 3 of them that are firing.

lets give best odds and say that all 15 shots hit.

in this case I would roll 3 dice (representing the 3 models with the same save) to score the 3+ needed to kill them, lets say I kill 2 of them.

I then roll a single dice unitl I either kill the marine or run out of dice.

I then roll ingle dice until the captain is dead (presuming he doesn't pass Look out sir rolls which happen before roling to wound) and again single dice for the sergeant, once it hits the unit again roll remaining dice together.

DJ, as I don't play at GW, how a given store might rule something means nothing. In the case of a tie, you would use the rules for multiple Toughness, ie use the highest value.

So for example if you had a captain in artificer armour, a librarian in power armour, joined to a scout squad, you would use the 4+, until all the scouts are dead, since 4 is higher than 2 or 3.

In case of no majority toughness you use the highest one, the hardest to wound.
From that I'd use the "worst" save avalaible

only you don't actually have permission in the rules to work it that way Happyjew

I can see the merit in your working there but it would make the weapon not function as is intended

lets for arguments sake say we are firing grav weapons at grey knight terminators who have been joined by an inquisitor who has a 5+ save.

lets say the inquisitor is on the outside of the unit either through poor placement or you catching the unit off guard.

by your method, the inquisitor who should only be being hurt on a 5+ is instead being hurt on a 2+, I do not think that is the correct way to work it and it really should be on a model basis

No by method, you use majority. In this case, 2+. If only 1 terminator and the inquisitor were left, then you would use the 5+. Exactly like rolling to wound against toughness.

As above. While there is no rules as written explicitly pointed to this, it is the most consistent method.

DJGietzen,

I believe the Void Shields Projection is the other Special Rule you where thinking of, and if not they can also be thrown onto your list as well. The point you are making is accurate from what I have seen on this board, more and more we are encountering rules that require each individual result to be resolved separately of other 'identical' results. While there is nothing in the rules informing us that they have to be resolved such, at least not in a direct and precise way that would make it far to easy and prevent debates between the sequential and simultaneous crowd, there is no simple way to proceed. We have a 'gray zone' simply because some sort of element is 'unknown' till it comes to actually resolving that individual Hit, often because we need to know exactly which model the hit would be resolved against. So any method that makes it impossible to tell the order the Rolls are being resolved makes it impossible to say if the rule was correctly applied.

Yet so many people, luckily not all, do seem to be so used to the fast dice method that they refuse to even look at the possibility of having to roll dice sequential.

I would disagree on that.

if that is the case your not following the weapons own requirements which are that the roll to wound is = to the targets AS, as this matters it would fall under the roll separately bracket as opposed to multi-save bracket.

but I'm in no mood for rules debates on Christmas Eve, I'll pick this up again after Christmas

Everyone's completely missed the point of the op. he's not asking about mixed saves. I think the question being asked is "do targets get to take armour saves etc?".

The answer is yes, they get to take their armour saves.

Jamo wrote:
Everyone's completely missed the point of the op. he's not asking about mixed saves. I think the question being asked is "do targets get to take armour saves etc?".

The answer is yes, they get to take their armour saves.

considering the grave gun is ap2 no they wouldn't get to take armor saves.

It also is very clear that he was asking about what he rolls to wound on a mixed save unit (since thats what op said)

Sorry, should have been less specific. They get to take any saves available to them. Ie cover and invulnerable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@crownaxe, just for humor's sake, reread the first paragraph in the first post. If you can.

yea, a grav gun/canon/pistol does not ignore cover or invulnerable saves on infantry.

on vehicles however they do ignore the cover save/invulnerable save due to the wording that is chosen on how those rules work with vehicles.

Thank you for your comments. To be honest I was asking everything that has been discussed. Necrons don't have much variarion in roughness and saves so it is all a bit new to me.

Looks like I'll be bringing phase shifters not sem weaves to kill marines next week!

Thank you all,