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MVBrandt wrote:Keith - on the last part, yes; the majority did not wish for longer rounds / breaks, but GTs aren't run as attendee-democracies. We're contemplating a variety of things to give people more time so that EVERYONE can feel comfortable, not just 'the majority.'

One of the things being tossed about is starting the GT with 2 rounds on Friday afternoon, having the full 4 on Sat, and then optional drops and the final 2 on Sunday AM. Other notions also being discussioned.

As far as the balance issue goes - your point is a good one, but the point is I don't *personally* believe Nids are subpar in comparison to SW or anything else, and Tasty's statement was that I believed that. I was correcting a falsehood about my own opinions.

As for tournament timing, knowing when the game is going to end, etc., these happen almost regardless of time level, unless you are stretching to "absurd" levels that aren't feasible within certain sizes and qualities of tournament format. I think we'll be trying to move to 2:30/round either way next year. It's important to base our changes upon the goal of seeing as MANY players as possible happy with their experience. Our survey has been heavily responded in in only a few days, and we're looking at a 95%+ satisfaction rate in attendees for the basic question of whether the GT went as or better than expected. I want that to be 100%, with more than the present 75% for whom it exceeded expectations.

One easy to way to do that ("easy") is extending round lengths, and perhaps - spreading rounds over parts of 3 days instead of having all 8 in 2 days.

First! I'd like to say I put "it was as good as I expected..." but only because I expected excellence and got it... I'm sorry if that messed with your data! :(

ALSO.... with regards to Tony and Nids... You guys do realize he lost to Brad's Dark Angels codex in the invitational right? one of the oldest books out there.... Just pointing out that AGE of the book does not matter in higher skill level games. Ask Dash of Pepper about my Tau... 2 games on 2 different days and I'd like to think neither were easy for him : )

MVBrandt wrote:Keith - on the last part, yes; the majority did not wish for longer rounds / breaks, but GTs aren't run as attendee-democracies. We're contemplating a variety of things to give people more time so that EVERYONE can feel comfortable, not just 'the majority.'

One of the things being tossed about is starting the GT with 2 rounds on Friday afternoon, having the full 4 on Sat, and then optional drops and the final 2 on Sunday AM. Other notions also being discussioned.

As far as the balance issue goes - your point is a good one, but the point is I don't *personally* believe Nids are subpar in comparison to SW or anything else, and Tasty's statement was that I believed that. I was correcting a falsehood about my own opinions.

As for tournament timing, knowing when the game is going to end, etc., these happen almost regardless of time level, unless you are stretching to "absurd" levels that aren't feasible within certain sizes and qualities of tournament format. I think we'll be trying to move to 2:30/round either way next year. It's important to base our changes upon the goal of seeing as MANY players as possible happy with their experience. Our survey has been heavily responded in in only a few days, and we're looking at a 95%+ satisfaction rate in attendees for the basic question of whether the GT went as or better than expected. I want that to be 100%, with more than the present 75% for whom it exceeded expectations.

One easy to way to do that ("easy") is extending round lengths, and perhaps - spreading rounds over parts of 3 days instead of having all 8 in 2 days.

Not suggesting you should do exactly as feedback states. Personally, I would be happy with slightly longer breaks. This was my first major GT and the first event, so rounds at 2:15 was something I wasn't used to. But I think everyone should consider ease of play and whether they can realisticly play the army in the time allotted. I certainly consider that when I make my WM/H lists, though they have timed turns. My Tyranid army did take longer to play than average I would guess, but that mainly meant I just used the bathroom during breaks, and not during rounds. I was certainly happy with the event and plan on coming back next year. Your desire to improve something that was already successful is great to have in a TO and I don't want my comments to suggest I was somehow unhappy with the event.

I appreciate that, Keith - and, I didn't think you weren't satisfied at all ... just giving honest feedback. It *is* something we are committed to - to making the NOVA better every year.

I think that's sorta the point in a sense ... nearly everyone who attended thought it was AWESOME ... and their feedback implies as much. We can still do a TON to make it way, way better ... and without the *constructive* criticisms like yours and others', we couldn't as readily do that ... so it's super useful.

If this discussion is the biggest gripe about NOVA, MVB has done an excellent job running the event. Most of the arguments I have seen are more about personal preferences which is very subjective.

I can only speak for myself, but I'd imagine you'd lose a lot of players if the tournament started on Friday. I for one would pass because I'd hate to lose my money should something work related come up on Friday. Fewer rounds? Sure. Lower points? Sure. Friday start? No thanks.

And while I took the survey, and to save my life can't remember if it asked anything about it, I'd much rather play fewer games and have a 100% chance to play them to completion than have to change my codex. I don't want to have to bring an elite army with lots of expensive toys every year just to be comfortable with the time limit and PV. Not to mention any negative effects on my opponents if I bring a large army that takes more time to move and resolve combat phases.

Still loved it though.

Sanguinary Dan wrote:I can only speak for myself, but I'd imagine you'd lose a lot of players if the tournament started on Friday. I for one would pass because I'd hate to lose my money should something work related come up on Friday. Fewer rounds? Sure. Lower points? Sure. Friday start? No thanks.

And while I took the survey, and to save my life can't remember if it asked anything about it, I'd much rather play fewer games and have a 100% chance to play them to completion than have to change my codex. I don't want to have to bring an elite army with lots of expensive toys every year just to be comfortable with the time limit and PV. Not to mention any negative effects on my opponents if I bring a large army that takes more time to move and resolve combat phases.

Still loved it though.

I think with the way Nova scoring works, decreasing the number of games by 1 would mean halving the number of players (which is why it hasn't been suggested previously).

warboss wrote:

I think with the way Nova scoring works, decreasing the number of games by 1 would mean halving the number of players (which is why it hasn't been suggested previously).

I would have been fine with the quick turn around between games if I had food and drink in a bag lunch. Itwas either a 12$ giftshop lunch or nothing when we had 30 minutes between games if you used your full time.

I support all the food ideas. If I had access to easy or cheap food, Im ok with back to back gaming. Next year I will bring bagged lunches.

Unfortunately, a Friday start would probably rule out the main event for me, too... but as I'd be registering for fantasy, that shouldn't be a problem for coming next year.

But I would definitely vote "no" for using a Friday start as a way to solve the time issue... it seems you'd have a lot of people that might have trouble making it on time, and it's asking for complications... so I really don't think that should be the solution.

nkelsch wrote:

warboss wrote:

I think with the way Nova scoring works, decreasing the number of games by 1 would mean halving the number of players (which is why it hasn't been suggested previously).

I would have been fine with the quick turn around between games if I had food and drink in a bag lunch. Itwas either a 12$ giftshop lunch or nothing when we had 30 minutes between games if you used your full time.
I support all the food ideas. If I had access to easy or cheap food, Im ok with back to back gaming. Next year I will bring bagged lunches.

I started putting out food at my GT's, partly because it's fun, but mostly for the guys that are scrambling to get food between rounds. Some armies take more time to clean up, and some games run a bit past the time limit to finish a round. For one day, small touraments it's usually a large pot of chili dogs. For two day events I usually do a pot of chile, sausage gumbo, or stew, and then some sort of hard food like smoked chicken or sausage and peppers. People can at least walk back and grab something in just a couple of minutes.

The hotel probably wouldn't like it if Mike brought in a 50 gallon pot of chili dogs), but things like sack lunches, or some type of buffet might be possible, to expand the menu and cut down on the time. Hopefully the hotel will see it as being able to grab some dollars that were walking out the door.

The on-site food is a huge plus at Mike's (edit: mikhaila, too many Mikes here ) events! Would be cool if Nova could somehow incorporate that, although being it's on such a large scale perhaps outside vendors would be needed, if allowed by the hotel...

RiTides wrote:The on-site food is a huge plus at Mike's (edit: mikhaila, too many Mikes here ) events! Would be cool if Nova could somehow incorporate that, although being it's on such a large scale perhaps outside vendors would be needed, if allowed by the hotel...

Here was my issue with food.

The hotel restaurant was really only open until 3. The restaraunt was slow and expensive for many people.

The bar was the only hotel dinner dining except for the steakhouse, they refused to let under 21 people eat food at the bar. Bar was also slow and expensive.

The giftshop was 4$ water and like 4$ candy bar and 12$ bag of jerky, so even snacks were prohibitive.

The closest place I found was an awesome italian sub shop... which so did everyone else, which the line was too long for the breaks.

I could never find the mcdonalds or subway I saw a few people had.

Oh, and there was a hurricane making it hard to easily explore for food :(

Pizza and soda would be amazing if it could show up at coordinated with a 30 minute lunch break.

The hotel definitely garnered a lot of negativity ... the survey was hugely valuable for this as well, as we've been able to create a litany of concern for the hotel staff to attempt addressing in their proposal for next year.

We're also investigating every other potential hotel in the region within shuttle of IAD or DCA (or metro from DCA), to make sure we get the best possible permanent venue. We may stay at the Hyatt, but they have to make some serious improvements/concessions to address those concerns attendees (And us) had. The nickel and diming "feel" extended to event organization as well as individual attendees.

It wasn't ABSURDLY expensive, but it was more expensive than we wanted ... and the costs to have food available are higher than is reasonable I think ... we're working on it

Frankly, I find almost everything in the Chrystal City area to be a bit overpriced and cluttered; especially for newcomers. I suggest trying further down the orange line, to be honest.

It's much more about hotels with the available required space than it is about the costs of the local area .... wargamers take up enormous amounts of space, 2 players for a 6x4 table and the surrounding "standing" space. Next year we're also planning sideboards for every table to place displays / models / etc. on, so even more

The point is - if you do want to make suggestions about specific places we should go, include suggested hotels with the 50,000+ of total event space to enable more permanent presence :p

mikhaila wrote:The hotel probably wouldn't like it if Mike brought in a 50 gallon pot of chili dogs), but things like sack lunches, or some type of buffet might be possible, to expand the menu and cut down on the time. Hopefully the hotel will see it as being able to grab some dollars that were walking out the door.

Speaking from my own personal gaming experience of attending a high school buddy's RPG campaign at which his dad always made chili... is it a good idea to give 30-50 gamers in an enclosed space a heaping serving of beans and then restricting their movements to one side of a table??!?! You either have a surplus jet engine powering your AC or stock in Febreeze's parent company!

Glad to hear about how you're handling the issue with the hotel since as you can tell from my review that was the only really negative thing about the GT and even that wasn't horrible, just not excellent like everything else

MVBrandt wrote:The point is - if you do want to make suggestions about specific places we should go, include suggested hotels with the 50,000+ of total event space to enable more permanent presence :p

Well, I don't often get this kind of response when offering advice for free lol.

Here goes:

http://www.virginia.org/Listings/Meetings/TheNationalConferenceCenter/
Easy to get to, close to Dulles, and lots of room.

http://www.hilton.com/en/hi/hotels/meeting_space.jhtml?ctyhocn=DCAOTHF

not sure if they can combine rooms or not, but a great location.

Am I on the payroll now?

warboss wrote:

mikhaila wrote:The hotel probably wouldn't like it if Mike brought in a 50 gallon pot of chili dogs), but things like sack lunches, or some type of buffet might be possible, to expand the menu and cut down on the time. Hopefully the hotel will see it as being able to grab some dollars that were walking out the door.

Speaking from my own personal gaming experience of attending a high school buddy's RPG campaign at which his dad always made chili... is it a good idea to give 30-50 gamers in an enclosed space a heaping serving of beans and then restricting their movements to one side of a table??!?! You either have a surplus jet engine powering your AC or stock in Febreeze's parent company!

It's all in the recipe. I try to do a lot of my chilis with black beans, lots of cooked down vegetables, and spicy sausage vs. hamburger and red beans. For chili dogs, you always use chili sans beans.) And we have a damn fine AC system at the store.)

Might be a bit different with 300 people though.

On the topic of a different venue, it's definitely a help if people making suggestions take the time to do a bit of research on the hotel websites. Saves the poor TO a lot of time looking at venues. Quite a few look good until you investigate them. If all they talk about is weddings and catering, that's a redflag. A quick call to investigate whether they will allow uncatered events is good. I've had many tell me that if I wasn't catering the event, the cost of the space doubled, or I needed to guarantee many hotel rooms. They're used to the high dollar amounts they can charge for weddings. If a hotel routinely holds non wedding events, like conventions of any type, it's a better chance they have what's needed for a large gaming convention. Ideally whats needed is a 50,000 sf room with cheap food vendors off to the side, connected to public transport, and affordable rooms. Not easy to find though, and might be off the beaten path.

Historicon struggled with this. They had a great spot at the Host in lancaster. Food was cheap and amazing. But the PTB wanted to become a 'more professional' event, so they moved it to Baltimore, realized the deal would bankrupt them, cancelled, got a lawsuit thrown at them, moved to King of Prussia, and all the expenses went way up. Everyone regrets the move greatly.

In regards to people finishing on time I looked at the end of every round and out of 120 tables there couldn't have been more than 5-10 games still going.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

MVBrandt wrote:There are a number of ways we're looking @ adding time back, some as simple as kicking off the GT on Friday evening.

YES! I think this is the way to make the 7 or 8 game GT as much fun as the old GW GTs. I never felt rushed at those. I can see what people are saying about elite armies and/or reserves. I designed an army for the mission and it was intended to start the game in reserves. I could see where normal armies and especially MSU were having trouble. People just aren't used to having to play that fast. A little chatting and next thing you know you are lucky to get in 5 turns.

Heres some input regarding the Hotel that people need to keep in mind. I suggest Mike keeping the venue. Knowing the hotel issues allow you to easily address them for next year. Plus having now been there i know what to expect and how to get around some of the bigger "additional" expenses.

- Room cost. $109 per night in that area is a steal. share a room with 1-3 others and the cost is minimal. Roooms were nice and clean. I even had plenty of workspace for my son and i to do some painting. The truth is that room service and the bottles of water are overpriced...sure thats in every hotel so dont be suprised.

- parking. i heard alot of people complain of the $25 a night cost. I agree thats high and needs to be re-negotiated. However in the same building there was a PCI (NAME ?) parking. They had interior and outside parking. I had a full sized pickup truck and Trailer. I got there on THursday and left at 4am on monday. Cost me $40 total. Thats actually very reasonable and if your car-pooling those costs should be split making it even cheaper.

-food, well this seems to be a hot topic and i can admit that i ate way too much McDonalds due to its proximity. However there were other options. 2 mornings i went to the deli next door and starbucks was near as well. Unfortunalty the deli was closed Sun morning due to the storm so we were off to mcdonalds. The lines there actually werent as bad as people say. wait time was usually 5 min tops and we always had a seat. There were other lunch options as well. an italian deli was close by and a pizzaria as well.
Dinner there was a buffalo wild wings, chilis and a few other options close by as well.

There were a couple of things that caused problems and some were out of mikes control.

The hurricane didnt help. Many places closed down due to the storm on Sat and sun morning. Even getting to a restaraunt was a hassel because the rain was so bad. We got soaked to the bone just walking to chilies 2 blocks away. The storm made the food issue harder because the only other option were the over priced hotel resteraunts.

What is in mikes ability to control is when the Tournaments end. Fridays invite didnt end untill almost 10pm this created an inability to find a place that was open at that hour. And i can be honest i wanted to sit down and eat. So the only real option was the bar. Over priced and slow.Sunday didnt get out until late as well.

My suggestion would be to end the invite and sunday festivities earlier allowing people to grab some grub before bed.

Snacks. I only really need water/soda between games. The hotel did provide water at the venue and it was much appreciated. However i did need on a few occasions to run upstairs and grab some $4 sodas. I would like to see that issue addressed mostly. I think the hotel could have made a killing if they provided basic drink and snacks downstairs to the gamers at a much reduced price. Ill happily pay $2 for water and soda. However $4 starts pissing me off.

So in conclusion certain things were just made worse by the storm paired with late run times and short breaks.

End a tad earlier and slightly extend the lunch break by a few mins and things should be fine regarding food. Barring another hurricane There actually were tons of food options close by.

Parking had other close by cheap options. Either bypass the hotel altogether or renegotiate.

Room costs were good.... just dont drink that $5 water or order room service.

Snacks, mike provided some in the swag bags, hotel had water jugs and cups. Nice things actually. However a cooler full of sodas and water for sale would address this in my opinion. I was more thirsty than hungry during the day.

And last but not least that hotel needs to address there lack of cell service in the gaming area! Not only did i have to go upstairs to make and recieve a call. It killed my battery as well trying to seek service so at the end of the day my phone was dead.

next year mike, renegotiate that hurricane out of there

I would keep the venue for next year. it was very nice and at least next year there wont be suprises.

-ed

I definitely think the games will take less time at a lower points level. I am one of those people who really prefers 2000 points because I want to have as many toys as possible and in game terms it's more forgiving. However I am really tired of playing against MSU with what becomes a relatively small amount of time. Especially if I am also playing MSU. The game becomes like micro management. Where before Wargamescon and Nova I wouldn't have really considered going to a comp event now Da Boyz GT sounds more interesting. In the same way I would happily play a lower points level if people aren't willing to start on Friday, or just to try something different.

Stormcrow wrote:

MVBrandt wrote:The point is - if you do want to make suggestions about specific places we should go, include suggested hotels with the 50,000+ of total event space to enable more permanent presence :p

Well, I don't often get this kind of response when offering advice for free lol.

Here goes:

http://www.virginia.org/Listings/Meetings/TheNationalConferenceCenter/
Easy to get to, close to Dulles, and lots of room.

http://www.hilton.com/en/hi/hotels/meeting_space.jhtml?ctyhocn=DCAOTHF

not sure if they can combine rooms or not, but a great location.

Am I on the payroll now?

I didn't really mean this in a negative way, and payroll would only earn you a percentage of the losses associated with running a large GT for player enjoyment and not for profit.

The National Conference Center is tricky b/c of how they manage costs; each attendee has to basically pay a fixed larger rate for room / amenities / event access, and has to pay it to the Conference Center directly, which means we can't really charge for tickets, and don't really have any revenue with which to manage the massive costs of running a GT of this caliber to the "GRAND" style that we strive for.

The Hilton you listed is far too small, though a nice venue.

To give a baseline, the Hyatt has around 53,000 square feet of event space, and we used about 31,000 of it this year. We can expand to the rest of it potentially, but we also want to investigate other places, b/c it's important that we provide our attendees with the BEST possible combination of cost, space, and quality.