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Vanguard vets would actually be fine with me if they came with a jump apothecary. Ie, BA ASM clones with their base 2 attacks.

Martel732 wrote:
Vanguard vets would actually be fine with me if they came with a jump apothecary. Ie, BA ASM clones with their base 2 attacks.

I was thinking more along the lines of making Vanguard cost 25 PPM and coming stock with jump packs and PWs. Essentially being Honour Guard with a Jump Pack that trades the 2+ armour for a Jump Pack. Not sure if that'd work, but still.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Something like

Tactical Marine

WS5 BS5 S5 T5 W2 I5 A2 LD9 SV3+

Special Rules: And They Shall Know No Fear, Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads

Wargear:

Astartes Bolter: Strength 5 ap5 Rapid Fire range 24"

Astartes Bolt Pistol: S5 ap5 pistol range 12"

Astartes Combat Blade: Close combat weapon (Maybe Rending? Might be OTT, but they are described as having monomolecular edges)

Giving them BS5 and S5 guns would make them much much more shooty, and T5 would make them far less vulnerable to Battle Cannon equivalents. (These weapons remain highly effective, however.)

At T5, W2 and 3+ sv they have little to fear from a lasgun... But when you spam the lasguns in the numbers that the Guard are famous for, it's another story, which should please everyone.

Tempting to give them additional special rules to reflect autosenses and whatnot, but then we're starting to stray into Movie Marine territory and I want something reasonable in between.

Should their resilience be shifted more towards the armour?

Maybe an inv?

I know people have already shot this down but . As much as I'd love to be evil and deploy T6 Nurgle armies and T7 bikers.... I'm going to have to say this is probably a bad idea . Not only is this a drastic change, but it would also require the change up of 6 entirce codices. Along with this, it would require scaling up other races, in particular, Necrons, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Daemons and would require scaling up certain units in all other codices as well. Along with that, I wouldn't want lasguns. Screw that, I'm taking Plasma guns. Its simply not worth it. An entire unit of 10 guardsman firing, only 5 would hit, then it is quite possible not even a single one would wound (its statistically a 1/6th chance of wounding. You don't even have enough dice to roll one of every value). Even amassing a total of 50 guardsman (ignoring any plasma weapons and pretending like there are no sergeants, and lets put it in rapid fire range), approximately 6 SM would die. This isn't fun nor is it entertaining and honestly at that point I'd just never play a SM army nor play against one. On top of that, plasma only wounds on 3+ now, MC can only wound on a 3+, SM can wound MC on a 5+ (thus again invalidating the point of krak grenades possibly), BS5 and WS5 means that you'd need to buff other characters stats even higher so your named characters would have BS6 and WS7 or 8, which would then thrust models even higher elsewhere as now you have a MC's stats in WS and BS, further invalidating the point of WS as now not even a MC with WS10 can make 6 armies roll a 5+ to hit further making DP unappealing, S5 guns would mean one would want to buff pink horrors even further, S5 guns would be wounding even MC (standard) on a 5+, etc. And trust me, an invuln save isn't that great. Don't you remember Thousand Sons? Oh awesome! You have a 4+ invuln. Oh yeah that doesn't matter because you die to everything else like a standard marine and each one of you costs astronomic prices.

Anyways, yeah I'd concur to saying double specials seems a fine change, an option for an extra CCW would be good, maybe a way to make heavy weapons salvo instead (though probably not heavy flamers then)? Those seem like the best band-aid solutions although I think that CSM will require a bit of extra work the only thing they got going for them is they can bring 2 special weapons in a squad of 10 and can pay 1 point (making us cost the same as a Tac) for a CCW.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Hmm. Perhaps. It depends. 40 points is as much as a Terminator, though they are arguably overcosted. Above tacticals are on par with Termies, winning out in resilience against AP4+ and AP2 but being weaker in melee. I'd say the Tacs are slightly stronger.

Do we have anything to compare these Marines to? Something reasonably similar in stats?

You can do a +5 for increase to upgrade the guns to Astartes.
+5 to gain a reg bolter and knife
+10 for WS and BS
+10 for W
+5 for I, A, and Ld

Making them about 50 points.
The thing is you would have to completely redo the SM and CSM codexes for this to work, smaller squads, buffing some special chars, re-pricing everything. These marines are a bit like tougher crisis suits with good BS and WS w/o jet packs.

I don't think they are worth as much. Look at what tacs pay now for +1 WS, BS and so on compared to a Guardsman. Nine points in total, even if we assume orders equal CT, combat squads and ATSKNF in value. Nine more ppm is probably not enough, but 35 more seems excessive for their damage output.

Well, there main power would be their toughness/wounds (they are harder to kill than termies are now agsint anyhitn that can't ignore their armour). Termies cost something like 35 now don't they, and they aren't basic troops. 35 seems about right, although you would have to see how there balance works.

I agree. They are nowhere near Movie Marine power (Movie Marines basically each have Relentless 36" Assault Cannons on every model, as well as a 3++, a 3+ rerollable, T6, S6...) and I'd argue that they are pretty much in between.

It is a massive change for sure, but that is no issue in itself. It's not like any rules designed here can hope to end up as anything more than house rules anyway. Our meta is already rewriting lots of things.

I do agree that other races become skewed. My stats would make Marine strength compared to, say, Guardsmen more accurate to fluff, but it skews the balance against, say, Banshees, who I imagine at least should be able to equal a Marine in combat.

We could try playtesting it... Though our playtesting queue is looooong.

Even amassing a total of 50 guardsman (ignoring any plasma weapons and pretending like there are no sergeants, and lets put it in rapid fire range), approximately 6 SM would die.

Lols, that is down to opinion. If you kill 6 SM with 250 points of Guardsmen, you'll have to remember that those 6 SM are 6x35=210 points of models removed in one shooting phase. That is not even close to bad, and the current way that Guardsmen kill Marines (Or Eldar, for that matter. Or Necrons. Or Daemons. Or...) just seems out of character with both factions to me. My meta is agreeing, so we are looking at developing 'fluff marine' stats. It's a complex job and it will be hard to please everyone since few can agree on just how powerful they actually are... But we'll do our best, and in our meta at least, we don't think Movie Marine stats are nearly as ludicrous as people say (Though may need tweaking, especially removing obvious things like stunt doubles)

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


I just did, didn't I? Batreps are anecdotal evidence anyway, it'd be meaningless. For what it's worth, I've had Crusader Squads torn to pieces by MCs, Juggerlords, Daemons and similar, and Crusader Squads are significantly more competent in CC than normal Marines. Has ATSKNF saved me? Yes, it has on occasion. More often than not, I've just gotten completely murdered.

Heldrakes are very popular. Riptides are very popular. High-volume high-S-high-AP shots are very popular (Daemons, Eldar, IG, DE, Orks). It doesn't matter that Marines have a theoretical edge against things that aren't played because they're inferior to the others. If you had a choice between a unit that's good at killing Guardsmen but bad at killing Marines and one that was good at killing any infantry, at roughly the same price, which one would you choose? Therein lies the problem.

U're once again comparing wrong things. Would any other tac troop choice be better in this situation? Basic troops dealing with mcs and juggerlords are an exception rather than a rule. I don't really know even one troop choice that can handle a juggerlord + retinue. Ork boyz? Challenged out nob. Done. Firewarriors? Not enough dakka even with markers - broadsides and riptides do the killing. Kabalite warriors? Nope, venoms are doing all the job and warriors do like <20% of total damage. Termagaunts/Hormagaunts? Yep, they can tarpit but the killing is done by mc spam. Am i seeing it wrong somehow? Correct me than.

I've tried playing lots of games without op units and can tell you, this games are much more enjoyable and ballanced than 'top tier' bull@$#t. The moment serpentspam, riptides, wraithknights and nightscythes come into play - the game's ruined and becomes boring to play.

Now that u're talking bout 'competitive' meta, all troops don't do much against current op stuff. What's the last time ETC was won by a heavy-on-troops list?

U see, there SHOULD be stuff that regular troops can't handle. But it sholdn't be so spam-friendly not to loose all the fun.

Kroot snipers scare me personally


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I agree. They are nowhere near Movie Marine power (Movie Marines basically each have Relentless 36" Assault Cannons on every model, as well as a 3++, a 3+ rerollable, T6, S6...) and I'd argue that they are pretty much in between.

It is a massive change for sure, but that is no issue in itself. It's not like any rules designed here can hope to end up as anything more than house rules anyway. Our meta is already rewriting lots of things.

I do agree that other races become skewed. My stats would make Marine strength compared to, say, Guardsmen more accurate to fluff, but it skews the balance against, say, Banshees, who I imagine at least should be able to equal a Marine in combat.

We could try playtesting it... Though our playtesting queue is looooong.

Even amassing a total of 50 guardsman (ignoring any plasma weapons and pretending like there are no sergeants, and lets put it in rapid fire range), approximately 6 SM would die.

Lols, that is down to opinion. If you kill 6 SM with 250 points of Guardsmen, you'll have to remember that those 6 SM are 6x35=210 points of models removed in one shooting phase. That is not even close to bad, and the current way that Guardsmen kill Marines (Or Eldar, for that matter. Or Necrons. Or Daemons. Or...) just seems out of character with both factions to me. My meta is agreeing, so we are looking at developing 'fluff marine' stats. It's a complex job and it will be hard to please everyone since few can agree on just how powerful they actually are... But we'll do our best, and in our meta at least, we don't think Movie Marine stats are nearly as ludicrous as people say (Though may need tweaking, especially removing obvious things like stunt doubles)

Honestly the lasguns are admittedly not that big of a thing, just a basic note. My real problem comes that it just really amps up everything.Fluffwise, Eldar are better as they live long and specialize so you need to raise them. Orks, fluff wise are known to toss them self back together and continue a suicidal charge and be ripping guardsman apart like jokes whilst war bosses face down SM and make chapter masters sweat. Nid MC, genestealer, and many other units would thee need to be scaled up. (Oh and DE same as E), Nurgle CSM would need to be rebalanced, the daemon prince would need a big buff, Necrons would need a buff to bring them up, and daemons would need a massive buff for pretty much every unit they have (except furies ). Along with that, plasma would need a bluff to keep it fluffy and other weapons might as well and it would buff the uncommon S10 even more. That being said, I wish you luck . It'll be hard but if you all have fun it shall be worth it!

I believe there's limits to what we can do. If we reach T5 already with Space Marines, imagine the crazy stats that Fluffy Draigo must have.

Then imagine if someone wants to try out his Primarch, lols.

Or Gargantuan Creature...

Bad 10-point system is bad.

People need to realize they start having to play space marines how they are needed instead of how they are wanted. If its a fun friendly casual game, sure play them how you want. In a competitive tournament seeing you need to play them how they have to be.

Marines used to be the army that you just stand and shoot or move and shoot or assault. They are no longer that simple or basic. They require skill and strategy now. Also don't base how good an army is going against someone using allies, that is a bad way to compare a armies useful ness. Any army will crumble going against a cheese ally.

It takes an awful lot of skill to make up for marines' lack of firepower and bodies.

It's obvious that when Tau or Heldrake firepower has taken out all your tacticals by turn 3, you just lack skill. You should have gone to ground!

Oh wait lol.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
It's obvious that when Tau or Heldrake firepower has taken out all your tacticals by turn 3, you just lack skill. You should have gone to ground!

Oh wait lol.

But some of us do not fight Chaos Marines and Tau every battle.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
It's obvious that when Tau or Heldrake firepower has taken out all your tacticals by turn 3, you just lack skill. You should have gone to ground!

Oh wait lol.

But some of us do not fight Chaos Marines and Tau every battle.

The problem is the answer seems to be "suck it up" or "time to army hop"


Personally, my idea for increasing Marine durability:

1. Baleflamer is AP4 except the turn it uses daemonforge.
2. Riptides cannot be joined by ICs
3. Markerlights go back to 1 token to remove 1 level of cover save (ie: 3 marker light tokens to remove the cover save from regular ruins).
4. Something something serpent shield.

nobody wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
It's obvious that when Tau or Heldrake firepower has taken out all your tacticals by turn 3, you just lack skill. You should have gone to ground!

Oh wait lol.

But some of us do not fight Chaos Marines and Tau every battle.

The problem is the answer seems to be "suck it up" or "time to army hop"


Personally, my idea for increasing Marine durability:

1. Baleflamer is AP4 except the turn it uses daemonforge.
2. Riptides cannot be joined by ICs
3. Markerlights go back to 1 token to remove 1 level of cover save (ie: 3 marker light tokens to remove the cover save from regular ruins).
4. Something something serpent shield.

That would help alot.

The Bale Flamer is child's play compared the carnage that Eldar and Tau can dispense from 30" away starting turn 1. Helldrakes have to roll reserves and then you can game the flier movement system and/or game wound allocation with a 2+ armored IC in a squad.

C:SM is demonstrably superior to CSM. Note that the gap here is not as large, because this is meq vs meq. CSM have a similiar problem as C:SM because of lack of body count. They just have a helldrake crutch, but good C:SM will overcome the helldrake. There is no overcoming 50+ wounds a turn from Eldar at long range. You can't hide, you can't get away and cover doesn't help.

Hence #4 which is "something something serpent shield"

I can't pretend I have a solid answer on that one

Leave it in perma defense mode. A transport you must hull point out is still nasty. But now the Dire Avengers actually have to get out to do damage. Boohoo.

I actually cannot argue with that