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They dont need a captain babysitter. They can shoot plasma without supercharging. The captain makes them so much better. A 5 model unit of comp vets with comb plas is 155 pts., the captain doubles their damage output for only 77 pts.

Spado wrote:
@ Melissia: are you using a full CC list?

A mixture of CC and shooting.

Spado wrote:
My only two victories have been achieved via a simple and sad shooty list like if I was an ultramarine: the other 8 games I tried to play as a blood angel and got tabled.

This is wrong in so many ways. BA use tacticals, tanks, and sternguard just as much as any codex adherent chapter, they aren't all freaking assault marines with jump packs in the lore.

Still you want some BA-special units. And most of the time they feel like you are weaken your army. As a BA-Player for twenty years this hurts so much. :(

Covenant wrote:
Still you want some BA-special units. And most of the time they feel like you are weaken your army. As a BA-Player for twenty years this hurts so much. :(

It's just an extension of 6/7th ed logic.

p5freak wrote:


Its wrong. There is no need to go into CC to do damage. In 8th BA jumpers can take ranged weapons. Company vets with JP can take Combiplasma, deepstrike, and shoot up to 24", or twice at 12". Add a captain to reroll 1s, to minimize supercharged plasma blowups to almost 0. Vanguard assault vets can take two plasma pistols each, 20 shots of plasma at 12" will hurt high toughness units. Add a captain to reroll 1s, to minimize supercharged plasma blowups to almost 0. There is always space between the deployment zones to deepstrike.

That's laughable at best. 1 damage weapons, 2 if you want to kill your own guys, to be your dedicated vehicle killers. 12" range on double pistols, lol, I couldn't get within 20" of my opponents tanks last game because of his positioning and deployment,. And then I have to take a captain with a JP just to babysit and use the 2 damage option.

Yeah your going to wipe those hellhammers and knights and other high toughness, high wound models with those plasma pistols, come on now.


And who said anything about CC to kill these things? I used to run 3 AC/LC preds to kill stuff, I'll probably switch over to Trilas peds now.

All the people pimping plasma need a reminder that mechdar laughs their ass off at you.

Martel732 wrote:
All the people pimping plasma need a reminder that mechdar laughs their ass off at you.

Probably just as well. Plasma-spam seems to be all the rage in 8th edition. Nice to know there is one opponent who is not bovered.

The serpent shield is dope as hell.

Martel732 wrote:
The serpent shield is dope as hell.

OMG, its so powerful. It reduces the 1 damage from plasma to 1

p5freak wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The serpent shield is dope as hell.

OMG, its so powerful. It reduces the 1 damage from plasma to 1

It takes away the 2 damage option, which is the whole point of plasma. Because base plasma is very meh, imo.

Is mechdar even any good? Either way you'd want Las, missiles, or melta in any list, assaulty or not. Right? I don't think anyone is planning on killing vehicle lists with plasma. Maybe 1-2, but not 8.

Yes, mechdar is good. Wave serpent is undercosted and spammable.

jcd386 wrote:
Is mechdar even any good? Either way you'd want Las, missiles, or melta in any list, assaulty or not. Right? I don't think anyone is planning on killing vehicle lists with plasma. Maybe 1-2, but not 8.

Exactly. Maybe in a scions list thats running 40+ plasma guns, but your not taking out Vehicles, monsters, or any amount of vehicles with plasma other than in a pinch. In my experience so far in 8th, armies need anti-high toughness/high wound weapons. Period.

The marine list with say 15 plasma guns that rely on them for say half their anti tank is basically an autoloss to mechdar.

bobafett012 wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
Is mechdar even any good? Either way you'd want Las, missiles, or melta in any list, assaulty or not. Right? I don't think anyone is planning on killing vehicle lists with plasma. Maybe 1-2, but not 8.

Exactly. Maybe in a scions list thats running 40+ plasma guns, but your not taking out Vehicles, monsters, or any amount of vehicles with plasma other than in a pinch. In my experience so far in 8th, armies need anti-high toughness/high wound weapons. Period.

Yeah i can't think of many (any?) exceptions. I have had success with 8-12 las cannons or equivalent, depending on the rerolls i have available. I also like enough D2/D1-3 damage to wipe 10 or terminators a turn, and 2-3 twin assault cannons or their equivalent for killing lighter infantry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
The marine list with say 15 plasma guns that rely on them for say half their anti tank is basically an autoloss to mechdar.

Sounds like auto lose to a lot of things, lol.

Martel732 wrote:
It takes away the 2 damage option, which is the whole point of plasma. Because base plasma is very meh, imo.

No need to overcharge then. Saves the captain points for something else. More plasma guns, for example

bobafett012 wrote:
Exactly. Maybe in a scions list thats running 40+ plasma guns, but your not taking out Vehicles, monsters, or any amount of vehicles with plasma other than in a pinch. In my experience so far in 8th, armies need anti-high toughness/high wound weapons. Period.

I wonder how i managed to kill a hellhound in one turn and next turn a chimera with my 5 model company veteran squad with combi plasma and a captain with the same gear,

15 plasma guns is actually legit in many circumstances. But mechdar is a super hard counter.

p5freak wrote:

bobafett012 wrote:
Exactly. Maybe in a scions list thats running 40+ plasma guns, but your not taking out Vehicles, monsters, or any amount of vehicles with plasma other than in a pinch. In my experience so far in 8th, armies need anti-high toughness/high wound weapons. Period.

I wonder how i managed to kill a hellhound in one turn and next turn a chimera with my 5 model company veteran squad with combi plasma and a captain with the same gear,

Yes at 2 damage a pop, but you have to be within 12", your risking killing your own guys, and your talking about light tanks. How about a land raider, a knight, bane blade or the like. A predator sitting in his back lines with no where close to DS. It's silly to think plasma is a good anti tank weapon. It's fine in a pinch, but you need consistent and high damage anti vehicle to handle many of the tougher vehicles and monsters in this edition.

Hellhound is a light tank with T7 11w and a 3+ save.

A squad of five with combiplasmas and a captain with combiplasma could theoretically kill it in one turn (average 6.049 unsaved wounds at two damage each), assuming none of them killed themselves on the first shot and you shot the captain last to ensure his survival. That said, at 236 points, needing to be undamaged within 12" and firing overcharge (thus presenting a danger to yourself)... being able to kill a 101 point hellhound in one turn is about right.

bobafett012 wrote:
Yes at 2 damage a pop, but you have to be within 12", your risking killing your own guys, and your talking about light tanks. How about a land raider, a knight, bane blade or the like.

How am i risking killing my own guys ? The chance of rolling two ones on one die is 3%.

bobafett012 wrote:
It's silly to think plasma is a good anti tank weapon.

Six plasmaguns are 65 pts. Show me ranged "consistent and high damage anti vehicle" weapon(s) for 65 pts., which can do the same, killing a light tank in one turn.

Personally, I'd rather have 5 devastators with 4 Las cannons, a Signum and cherub for 170 points that can sit in cover and shoot 48" across the board. They live longer, can handle higher toughness models, and can so a lot more damage, specially when you use CPs to reroll low damage rolls.

I'd probably also rather have a tri Las pred or AC/LC pred for 190/189 points as well.


Looking through the book, what are you looking at that your loading up plasma guns or combi plasma on the whole squad? Sternguard vets?

quad-las you mean? Heh.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

bobafett012 wrote:
Looking through the book, what are you looking at that your loading up plasma guns or combi plasma on the whole squad? Sternguard vets?

Sternguard for combiplasma, though honestly sternguard are decent enough with just hte base special-issue boltguns. But for plasmaguns, it's company veterans.

Either one you pay a premium for over tacs or devs. 155 points for five combiplasma sternguards, or 147 for four plasgun company vets with combiplas sarge. Compare that to four lascannons and a cherub on a dev squad for 170 points, which has four times the effective range, isn't risky to fire, and hits harder per shot. The plasma will potentially do more damage against T7 or lower if you can get them in to 12" rapid fire range, but they also take more risk in doing so or give up a turn of shooting from needing to disembark. If you include the rhino necessary for the plasma team to move up, you need 308 points total for the combiplas team mentioned above. For 340 points you can instead have ten lascannon shots turn one.

tl;dr: both are valid. But each one has its drawbacks. I'd say though I think lascannons do a better job supporting an assault army than plasma vets. It allows you to focus the assault portion of your army on killing infantry.

Yeah to kill a tank with plasma you have to get close, so it's a lot more than 65 points to kill a tank. Not even mentioning you need need an HQ aura, a unit with deepstrike, or a rhino to get them in range, it gets to cost a lot more to kill that tank.

Plus, deepstrike isn't reliable against armies with scouts or enough chaff units to keep your units off their good stuff, so it's not like you want to have 15 plasma guns off in deepstrike, each with at least a 16 point marine attached to it depending on the unit, waiting for the other player to give you a good target while 2k of his list shoots 1700 of yours when you can just have 12 Las cannons.

And if they are in rhinos, that's like two turns to shoot at all, and maybe never against backlive tanks like predators.

Plasma guns can be used as anti tank in a pinch, but i don't think you can rely on it against good players and lists.

510 points of dedicated anti-tank (3 4-las dev squads with cherubs) is probably fairly well spent, considering first turn you get 15 shots then 12 shots after, barring casualties. That's enough to do almost 20 damage on the first turn alone, erasing one or more tanks-- and that's assuming T7 3+ saves. It's even enough to, on average, annihilate a stormraven in one turn. And that's without character support.

Granted this assumes you're going to be going first; marines usually do, though.

Greetings fellow BA players. Tomorrow evening I'm going to play very likely against an ynnari player. This is the list I have in mind:

Battalion detachment:

HQ

Captain, relic blade, storm shield, JP [5]

Captain, rleic blade, combiplasma, JP [5]

Troops

5x tactical space marines, heavy flamer, sergeant with combiflamer [5]

5x tactical space marines, heavy flamer, sergeant with combiflamer [5]

5x tactical space marines, heavy flamer, sergeant with combiflamer [5]

Elites

5x company veterans, combiplasma, JP, ss [10]

5x company veterans, combiplasma, JP, ss [10]

Flyer

Stormraven [15]

Heavy support

5x devastator squad, 4x lascannon [7]

Predator quadra-lascannon [9]

Predator lascannon sponsons and autocannon [9]

Dedicated transport

Razorback, TL assault cannon [5]

Razorback, TL assault cannon [5]

Razorback, TL assault cannon [5]

Plan:SR as well as the three rb with my tacticals rush forward and burn some xeno's. One of the captain stays close to the devastator squad and one of the predator to reroll 1's. Company veterans and the other captain are in deep strike.

I don't know whether I should replace the assault cannon with the heavy flamer? Consider that I will rush forward it might get severely damaged already and the flames might be better. What do you think?
As usual I'll let you know how it goes.
For Sanguinius!

Spado

You have three heavy support units, if you add one hq you could run a spearhead detachment, getting another cp.

This seems better done with a vanilla chapter, but sure.

What's on the SR?

Martel732 wrote:
This seems better done with a vanilla chapter, but sure.

What's on the SR?

THIS!

This is the problem with trying to fall back to the old idea that blood angels are indeed a codex chapter and should be run like one. They don't do anything better then a codex chapter when playing this style. If you play to the BA strengths, then we start looking a lot better. Does that mean all melee, no, not at all. But a much more balanced list then the all shooty codex chapter armies from C:SM.

 Coyote81 wrote:

This is the problem with trying to fall back to the old idea that blood angels are indeed a codex chapter and should be run like one. They don't do anything better then a codex chapter when playing this style. If you play to the BA strengths, then we start looking a lot better. Does that mean all melee, no, not at all. But a much more balanced list then the all shooty codex chapter armies from C:SM.

According to the fluff we like to deepstrike with JP, we like flamers, and we like melee. And what of this can we do better than any other chapter ? Nothing. So, what are those BA strength you are talking about ? Black rage ? Nice to have, but nothing spectacular.

p5freak wrote:

 Coyote81 wrote:

This is the problem with trying to fall back to the old idea that blood angels are indeed a codex chapter and should be run like one. They don't do anything better then a codex chapter when playing this style. If you play to the BA strengths, then we start looking a lot better. Does that mean all melee, no, not at all. But a much more balanced list then the all shooty codex chapter armies from C:SM.

According to the fluff we like to deepstrike with JP, we like flamers, and we like melee. And what of this can we do better than any other chapter ? Nothing. So, what are those BA strength you are talking about ? Black rage ? Nice to have, but nothing spectacular.

Welcome to 8th.