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Ok so thus far I got a small pile of HE models appear under the Christmas tree and plans to expand into a larger HE force; however I need some advice on how best to grow it into a viable army as well as what to avoid (or rather put later into purchases). Note I dno't have the codex as yet

At present I've got;
1 Battalion
1 Phoenix
2 Great Eagles (LotR eagles).


First a few questions:
1) Spearmen VS Sea Guard - Which option generally proves to be the best? I know that since the difference is basically just an optional attachment that its likely a fairly lax area of WYSIWYG (for outside of tourney play); however what advantages do they have over each other?

2) I hear good things of both phoenix with a weighting toward the frost being superior in general. Clearly whichever I go for magnets will be important to allow mounted and feral options.

3) Chariot wise are the lions better than the horses for general use? I've read that the horse version appear to work better in a small group whilst the lion has a stronger independence.

4) IS there any reason I wouldn't want to get the models from the Island of Blood - at present I'm thinking on either Ebay or finding someone local who wants to start Skaven and picking up two boxed sets (so ending up with double the model count for HE and either choosing that on ebay or just swapping things over from two boxed sets with the Skaven player).
Far as I can tell the only waste in that is the Griffon mounted hero - whilst 20 Sword masters of Hoeth and 20 L. Sea guard along with the Ellyrian riders (which I note are not sold outside of the boxed set) would be a decent and affordable start to those troop options.

5) How air heavy can one go? Is it viable to put down a significantly heavy flight based army such as pheonix, eagles, griffon and skycutter?

1. Build them as Seaguard then you can use them as both. people care less if you are using less.

2. Frost phoenix all the way every time he is just necessary.

3. Lion chariots provide high strength flanking attacks they are always a good choice. However if you have a couple a unit of tiranocs migth work better.

4. IOB is a great deal and everything in it has some value, however the reavers are the best.

5. YOU go as heavy as you want there is even a list where everything moves 9" a turn.

Merry Christmas! That's not a bad haul of presents you've got there at all, so let me see if I can help you along at bit.

So, at present (pun most definitely intended) you've got: 20 Spearmen, 20 Archers, 8 Silver Helms, a Chariot, a Phoenix and 2 Eagles.

Right, on with your questions:

1) I would always go for Spearmen and I would strongly advise you to do the same. However, as a fairly recent thread showed, a number of people would advise you to take Sea Guard instead. However, I think Spearmen are vastly superior. Whilst LSG do give you some extra shooting (including stand and shoot), the damage output they kick out (bearing in mind the fact that, as primarily a combat block, you'll want to be moving them around) is very minimal for the fairly steep points cost. A points cost that could be used to buy, say, a unit of Archers, whose shooting prowess is far more useful. Also, HE want to be spending as little as possible on Core, since, well, our other units are far better. As a general rule, aim for bang on that 25% limit. You already have a lot of core, so you don't want to be bumping that cost up by using LSG over Spearmen.

2) A Frost Phoenix is usually far superior. The exception comes is when you are using a full cavalry list, or any other list that struggles to deal with large block of infantry. Here, the Flamespyre is far more useful to your army, thanks to its ability to fly over stuff and burn it.

3) I would usually go for a Lion Chariot, purely because it can smash into stuff and cause a lot of damage. Horse chariots are indeed cheaper, and fairly useful when taken in groups, but chariots aren't that useful anyway, so, I'd just stick with a Lion Chariot.

4) Most of it comes back to the Core thing I mentioned. Although you will probably use everything - save perhaps the Griffon, which you could however use as another Eagle - you will have a lot of redundancy. That is, if you want a good list, you won't be using everything at once. That's not necessarily a bad thing, since it allows you to change up your list from time to time, but it is a question of cost in that would you prefer to spend less and just have one potential army list? If so, another box of Spearmen or Silver Helms will do you for Core, depending on your chosen list, and you can buy characters separately.

5) Well, obviously, none of your Core can fly but, aside from that, you can do quite a lot of flying. Phoenixes and Great Eagles are all fantastic units, whilst Skycutters and Eagle/Griffon mounted characters are usable as well. It's probably not the type of list you'd take to tournaments, but it's a fun thematic list that will be more than capable of winning games.

Finally, as for what to buy next, I'd definitely pick up another box of Spearmen, or at least acquire some in some way. 20 Spearmen on their own won't do much, but 36 is a good sized unit. Of course, you may be set on cavalry for your core, in which case you may want an extra box of silver helms. Next, I'd choose what Specials you want to include. Pretty much everything works, but a large unit of White Lions is probably the number one choice. Finally, pick up a couple of mages (one to be an archmage) and a Noble BSB and you should have a good list. Let me know what you may want to include, or let me know if you want anymore advice and we should be able to make a good shopping list for you

Hope this helps!

1) Spearmen VS Sea Guard
Spearmen are the cheapest models in the book so work to provide the ranks to shatter Steadfast. Lothern Seaguard pay extra points to make a weird middle-ground that doesn't really solve any problems. Think of them as Archers that trade 6" of range for a 5+ save since the Archers already fight in enough ranks.
I'd say Spearmen are 'better' in that they fill a clearly-defined role while the Lothern Seaguard introduce a versatility that isn't really needed. That said most players would probably point towards Archers, Silver Helms and Ellyrians over either of the Spear options.

2) Frostheart vs Flamespyre
Frostheart. It's a very real contender for 'best monster in the game' and it is worth every point you spend on it. Unfortunately the Flamespyre is left out in the cold on this one (Ha!)

3) Lion Chariot vs Tiranoc
It's a somewhat-similar situation to the Spear-Lothern comparison in that neither option is very good, but the Tiranoc serves its job better. The Lion Chariot lacks the resilience to be a combat unit while lacking the punch to be a fighty unit. It just doesn't really do anything. White Lions are better if you need a Stubborn tarpit and cavalry is better if you want a durable beatstick. The Tiranoc is yet-another-chaff unit in an army that already includes Eagles and Reavers. That's not to say that it's bad at its job but rather the job is already filled for most armies.
Basically, neither is fantastic. However the Tiranoc is a better skirmish unit, than the Lion Chariot is as a melee unit.

4) Island of Blood
It's a fantastic set and absolutely essential to the aspiring Elf player. Ellyrians will likely be in every army you ever make while the Seaguard and Swordmasters can be worked into an army without much difficultly, while working as an extremely cheap 'foundation' army that you can build on to make something that plays more to your style.

5) Aerial units
Frostheart are brutal and it is perfectly reasonable to run an army that includes 4 of them. Dragons are slightly less incredible but still good enough to get some use from. The Star Dragon requires a very specific army but it can be made to work gloriously. Eagles are no worse than they've ever been (Read-fantastic) but have possibly lost ground simply due to Ellyrians doing their job from Core points. Finally the Skycutter works as a better, more-expensive Tiranoc. It can work but isn't part of the High Elf A-game. That's not to say it is bad.


As for general advice, I highly recommend the following for all thing Elf:
http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=48198&start=0

Thanks for the input guys; a few thoughts based upon that


1) Forgot to ask but aside from the model differences is there any difference between a sea guard (from the spearmen box) and Lothern Sea guard? I assumed they were different, but you used the names a little interchangeably there Shadow which suggests that they might not be.

2) Pheonix wise it seems the frost is the most general use option - though I do have some plans to go cavalry heavy as it gives me an excuse to add some lion+cold one alternate mounts. That said considering the increased costs and time its likely a longer term plan so a regular pheonix could be added at a later date.

3) Army building wise I think the next thing I want to focus on is the IoB approach since that gives me mages and heros to put on the table as well as some additional troops.
There after I'd likely consider picking up a second battalion just to really round out the troop options. Chances are as the army grows I'd end up making those purchases anyway so might as well take the saving on offer there. Plus I can then paint a large amount of the core all in one go and get a nice even look to them.


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Mozzamanx - appears you were typing as I was and got your post in!

In reflection it answers one question - the Sea Guard are all the same type; just unusual that GW makes two models for them in the form of the spearmen upgrade and the separate unit.

Based on the collected views it sounds like Spearmen would be the best early option - picking up a few seaguard later as an inbetween unit if needed.

There's also a lot more grounds for adding the LoB boxed set - esp as many of those demo armies included on that like you posted show 10 Ellyrians almost as a standard unit (a shame GW doesn't make a separate model for them - and that their model in the sprue is horse and rider attached to each other instead of separate parts).

1. If you have sea guard from the IoB then you could just use them in conjunction with regular spearmen from the battalion and use whichever you have selected in the front ranks to avoid confusion and let your opponent know.

2. Frost phoenixes are great, particularly against elite opponents, particularly in pairs, due to their de-buff bubble effect. Fire pheonixs are probably better against horde armies due to their flaming fly-by ability and with a character on board as the ability to have it resurrect itself and the character is pretty great, even if it doesn't always happen.

3. Lion chariots have at least some combat ability after a charge but still suffer from the same trapping as other chariots. It's also kind of ironic that in fast high elf armies chariots of both varieties are too slow.

4. IoB is fantastic, you can pick up the high elf half on eBay for a very reasonable price. Everything is useful to some extent and the models are brilliant but it's the reavers which are best value.

5. High elves are one of the best candidates for an all cavalry force. Core silver helms and reavers are great, dragon princes make great flankers/monster hunters. The sky-cutter is probably not the most competitive choice, but flying war-machines are pretty cool and their mobility is a big plus. Eagles are great re-directors, but will compete for space in rare choices with phoenixes. All in all though high elves can be built to suit just about any play style.

Thanks Alex - more to support the views already expressed!



Out of interest anyone know good search terms on ebay to find cold ones and lion chariot lions? Not finding many sprues up for sale of just the mounts and I was sure that a month or two ago there were a good few stores selling cold ones at the very least without riders.
Lions I've only found one and charging £10 just for the lions is - from a £18 kit - cheeky IMO

 Overread wrote:


Out of interest anyone know good search terms on ebay to find cold ones and lion chariot lions? Not finding many sprues up for sale of just the mounts and I was sure that a month or two ago there were a good few stores selling cold ones at the very least without riders.
Lions I've only found one and charging £10 just for the lions is - from a £18 kit - cheeky IMO

It's, sadly, gone from my eBay feed now, but I was looking for two White Lions (as in, actual lions) to use as unit filler for my White Lion infantry unit. There was a lot I was watching which had the two lions in and it went for £30. Genuinely, I've never been so astounded in my life. How someone could be stupid enough to pay that much for something you get in a kit you get for almost half the price, amidst other stuff as well. In the end I bought a Chariot and a box of Cold Ones. I used the Lions for my fillers, and the Cold Ones + the Chariot to make a Cold One Chariot and 3 extra Cold One Knights. Honestly, if you want the white lions, buy the chariot kit and assemble it as a horse chariot and sell it on.

The Shadow aye - I'm hoping that the cold one mounts might appear on ebay as I'm fairly sure selling the riders on alone for them wouldn't be worth it.

I agree on the lion front; shame there are only two in a boxed set; but at least I can sell the chariot and horses on (and to start with build up a few of those to use in the army itself).

Kind of makes it expensive though as I'd rather use lions for the Silver Helms and Cold ones for the Dragon Knights - even at just 16 silver helms that 8 chariot packs!


And yes some times people on ebay go nuts! They get all caught up in the bidder war. Sure for out of print or metal models I'd pay a bit more; but for something in production that sells brand new for less - eh some people have more money than sense


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Hms I've noticed rumour that Silver helms are being re-released (sparked by all their current stock being unavailable) and rumour says that they'll be helms and reaver boxed sets.

This means I could change how I want to convert things into

Silver helms = lion riders
Ellyrian Reavers = cold one riders
Dragon Princes = normal mounts (because they are good mounts with those dragon helms)

That along with the issue of the lion mounts and chariots makes me think it might be worth picking up two additional battalions now instead of IoB content and a single battalion.

My thinking is that whilst the IoB is still very good value, the battalions are likely to get re-released as well and that nearly always comes with a price increase. The current content is solid so would form a large core I could work from plus I could use the 3 chariots as horse drawn to work in a team on the table (and use the 6 lions to make a start with silver helm riders).