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So Harath Shen, the Salamander master apothecary from Forgeworld. His ability to gain victory points for friendly units that are destroyed, how does it work in Big Guns Never Tire? Do you just get to roll for friendly Heavy Support units, or ALL friendly units? The first part of the rule seems to read that it would give you the roll even for NON heavy-supports, but the end of the rule kind of throws that into question without, to my eye, explicitly saying so. Anyone have any thoughts?

It depends on the wording. If it said you get to roll for each friendly unit destroyed, then any unit from his codex plus any BB unit will trigger it. If it said for each sorting unit then in BGNT, HS units destroyed would trigger it.

In missions where Victory points are scored for destroying units (including as secondary objectives), if Harath Shen is within 6" of a friendly Infantry unit chosen from Codex: Space Marines or the Space Marine Siege Assault Vanguard army list which is wiped out by the enemy, roll a D6. On a 5+, the player whose unit was destroyed also gains a Victory point, as well as the enemy.

The rule does exactly what it says. In any game where you can gain VP for destroying units (which includes all standard missions because of first blood VPs*) you get to make the roll for any infantry unit, including infantry units which don't give VPs.


*And if you disagree that first blood is sufficient then it would be any mission with kill points, big guns, or scouring.

It only triggers when Shen is within 6" of a friendly C:SM(or assault vanguard) infantry unit that gets wiped out. Non-infantry units won't cause the rule to trigger even if the enemy gets a VP.

Now, the fun part it seems is that it also triggers if the enemy would not gain a VP for wiping out your infantry unit. As long as the mission allows for at least 1 VP to be scored for destroying a unit (like 1st blood) then Shen's rule is satisfied. Its moot though as on a 5+ both sides get a VP.

Yeah whether you apply it to units that don't give the enemy a VP or not is moot as you both gain a VP from the situation anyway so 0-0 or 1-1 makes no difference to the outcome of the game. In tournaments where total VPs gained matters this could have an impact so check with the TO as to his he wants it played.

So, as I'm understanding the community view...

If the game grants VPs for killing units (which First Blood or possibly even Slay the Warlord will grant) AT ALL, and assuming the 5+ roll is successful:

-if the destroyed unit would normally have given the opponent a VP, then the opponent gains their normal one, and the controlling player does as well.
-if the destroyed unit would NOT normally have given the opponent a VP, then both players gain a VP.

Have I got that right?

Yeah that is correct.

 Jimsolo wrote:
-if the destroyed unit would NOT normally have given the opponent a VP, then both players gain a VP.

Only if you read that as "the enemy gains a VP even if they wouldn't have gained one otherwise" instead of "you gain a VP in addition to any VPs that your opponent would normally be getting". If you take the second interpretation, which is IMO the more reasonable one since giving each player a VP accomplishes absolutely nothing, then you will always gain the +1 VP if you pass the roll but your opponent will only gain a VP if killing the unit would normally give them one.

I don't know Peregrine

...the player whose unit was destroyed also gains a Victory point, as well as the enemy

I don't think there is really any way to interpret that so that the player who lost a unit is the only player to get a VP. Its also clearly not the intent of the rule to give you victory points your opponent is not also getting.