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So many, if not most would agree that the current hull points system in 6th is flawed. I am not one who is wholly against it. I actually like the concept, but I feel it was poorly executed/not play tested enough. Vehicles are now just far to fragile to justify their points costs unless they are hard to hit in the first place (fliers) or outright mitigate the new system via special rules of their own (Wave Serpents). And walkers of course, suffer the most from it, being ridiculously easy to kill now even in CC, where the fluff says they are supposed to be nigh-unstoppable except by another walker or an MC.

I personally feel the quickets way to remedy this would be to just give all vehicles more hull points across the board, and more greatly diversify the HP vehicles get. And many others have expressed, it makes no sense to me both a LEMAN RUSS and a DE Raider have the same number of HP I personally feel the HP system should go like this.

Very small =vehicles like Eldar Vyper Jetbikes - 3 HP

small fast skimmers like Land Speeders, all DE vehicles - 4 HP.

Necron Vehicles (except monolith) - 4 HP

All vehicles with the "tank" type (rhinos) - 5 HP

Leman Russ tanks - 6 HP

Land Raider and Monolith - 7 or 8 HP

All Walkers - 3 or 4 HP, to represent their agility and toughness all walkers have a 5++. Grenades in CC can only hit them on a 6.

I would really like to know how others feel the HP system can be fixed, or if you feel we should just go back to 5e damage rules.

I think the system right now is pretty good to be fair, I think 5th was silly in that vehicles were too tough but 4th they were too weak, Maybe at most +1HP to main battletanks and raider/monolith and thats it really. I think the transports and light vehicles are where they need to be with HP and really most heavies are fine, I play an IG army and I reckon my tanks are pretty survivable for their cost. I dont think transport vehicles should be that difficult to kill anyway considering how cheap they are. Rhinos, chimeras, drop pods, and razorbacks are incredibly cheap and most take way more points/time to take out than you spend on them. The skimmer transports are far higher costed remember to reflect the fact they are more surviable. 2 Rhinos cost less than a devilfish, 3 rhinos less than a wave serpent, 2 rhinos are 10points more than a raider, so really I think its pretty well balanced

Also outright exploding a vehicle in one shot is incredibly difficult except with the low AP high cost weapons which are designed to do that anyway

In regards to walkers, I think the easiest solution is to bring back the 4th ed "cannot use grenades against walkers with a WS unless they are immobilised" suddenly mr dreadnaught gets alot scarier.

Its an interesting concept and I agree that vehicles can be really squishy but they can still be dominant. Its a game of chance and I once hadmy land speeder that was armed with an assault cannon and heavy flamer get charged by 4 assault marines, his 3 power fist attacks failed to do anything along with 3 krak grenades. That was just unbelievable and probably a once in a life time thing, I think he got one glance on it but it lived to kill 3 of them :p

5th edition vehicle rules made vehicles to OP. I think glances should not take hull points but on a 1-2 nothing 3-4 crew shaken, 5 crew stunned, 6 weapon destroyed and no hull points removed.

Walkers are trouble because in CC you::
a) either crush them easily (thanks to Armourbane, Power Fists, etc..)
b) can do nothing against them (races without melta grenades, high strength, powerfists, etc....) and just get killed

Giving them more HP or making them harder to hit just makes the people in b) even more screwed while not affecting a)

The same goes for tanks. Giving Land Raiders extra HP would benefit them a lot more than giving extra HP to a flimsy skimmer, because they are more likely to suffer glancing hits (thanks to AV14) instead of exploding outright (as an AV10 open-topped skimmer is wont to do).

Drop it completely.

I voted other. I think hull points are pretty stupid, honestly. So machines have wounds now? But 5th Ed.'s vehicle damage chart was flawed as well, so I couldn't vote for that.

In 4th Ed. vehicles were too weak because of the vehicle damage chart.

In 5th Ed. the vehicles became too strong because of the vehicle damage chart.

In 6th Ed, instead of finding a better balance between the two previous editions, hull points are added instead. Since it reduced the overpowered vehicles, people seemed to think it was an improvement. No, it was just another change. Just improve the vehicle damage chart and you won't have to use the stupid hull point system.

 Shandara wrote:
Walkers are trouble because in CC you::
a) either crush them easily (thanks to Armourbane, Power Fists, etc..)
b) can do nothing against them (races without melta grenades, high strength, powerfists, etc....) and just get killed

Giving them more HP or making them harder to hit just makes the people in b) even more screwed while not affecting a)

The same goes for tanks. Giving Land Raiders extra HP would benefit them a lot more than giving extra HP to a flimsy skimmer, because they are more likely to suffer glancing hits (thanks to AV14) instead of exploding outright (as an AV10 open-topped skimmer is wont to do).

I agree. This made me also think of another solution: make the vehicle damage chart like those of superheavies in apocalypse, in that even you cannot wreck/blow up a vehicle until you have taken away all of its Hull/Structure points.

Voted "get rid of +1/+2 on vehicle damage"

Theres far too much AP1/2 in this game for that to be any good.

Far too much.

Tanks are very tough, very good at soaking up damage, but not THAT kind of damage. I mean like a rocket right in the engine, that's going to cripple anything, and 40k is supposedly full of deadly weapons, far superior to any we know today. It only makes sense that for the most part everything goes pop.

I would like to see some vehicle upgrades that actually work though, extra armour sounds like something everything should have, but it's not worth it in most cases. Standardized vehicle upgrades could work for all the codices , I mean, all this warfare and no one has thought to put more armour on the rear of their tanks? Come on.

Armour Plating: 35 points, add +1 to the armour value of each facing except the rear, this cannot bring any armour value past 12. May only be taken by non-flyers and only once per vehicle.

Digital Smoke: 15 points, one use only, use while disembarking, units within 8" of firing model get +1 to their cover save, if they have no cover this grants them a 6+. This cover may not be ignored by any weapons that have the ignores cover USR, except flamers.

Signal Jammerboosters: 10 points, any friendly units within 18" of a vehicle equipped with Signal Jammerboosters can reroll any failed Leadership rolls. Enemy models within 18" of a Signal Jammerbooster must reroll all successful Leadership rolls.

High Explosives: 25 points, one use only, equipped vehicle can elect to use HE Rounds in their shooting phase instead of firing as normal. Select one weapon on the vehicle to fire as normal, that attack now has +1 STR and AP2. Cannot fire any other weapons.

I don't know what stuff like that should cost but it's just an idea. Everything should be potentially weak, but everything should have purpose while it's on the field.

I would make the extra armour upgrade give an additional hull point (as long as it's not a flyer).

I already posted this in the 'fixing dreadnoughts' thread, but this is what I would do:

Matt.Kingsley wrote:Really, all I would do would just change how ALL vehicles are damaged, kind of like a mix between 5th and 6th vehicle damage. For example:
Vehicles no longer lose hull points on all glancing hits, however they roll on a glance damage chart

When a vehicles suffers a glancing hit roll on the following table:

1-2 Shaken
3-4 Stunned
5 Weapon Destroyed, -1 HP
6+ Immobilised, -1 HP



When a vehicles suffers a penetrating hit it loses 1 HP. In addition, roll on the following table:

1-2 Shaken
3 Stunned
4 Weapon Destroyed
5 Immobilised
6+ Explodes!

I know what I posted before but I change my mind, glances should still not remove any hull points but on a 4-5 crew shaken and on 6 crew stunned. If you make it any lower rolls people will just stun the crap out of tanks and they will be always snap shooting. Without it that way I would prefer to lose hull points but still be able to shoot the crap out if you

I like the idea of damage building up over time, but not the idea of vehicles having "wounds" like an MC that sometimes dies catastrophically.

My inclination would be to make HP a measure of hull damage, something that weakens vehicles as they are stripped off but doesn't cause them to die outright. Something like "Once all HP are gone, glances count as penetrating hits and penetrating hits get a +1 on the damage results table".

The would limit the frustration of 10 direct hits causing no real damage as sometimes happened in 5th, without making vehicles quite as fragile as they currently are in 6th.

So.. Fliers are strong because most armies need skyfire to even really hit them?

Vehicles (or maybe just tanks?) could have a sweeping rule attached to them that weapons that don't have melta/armorbane(lance?) can't remove HP (only be capable of vehicle destroyed! results but have the negative side effect of being unable to remove HP unless they get a vehicle destroyed result.)

Example.. A str 5 weapon hits the AV10 rear of a rhino any number of times. The only damage it can even do to the rhino is 6 for a penetration roll and then a "Vehicle Explodes!" Result, in which case the Rhino is destroyed. I guess you could also have the immob/weapon destroyed results (but no HP damage just the effect!).

EDIT; oh.. and also distribute special vehicle destroying rules to things that should be destroying vehicles (rockets?).