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So a new acquiantence of mine just got into the hobby after I told him what it was all about. I talked about the different armies, fluff, entry costs etc. He seemed very interested. He hadn't made any financial investment yet. I told him that players generally gravitate towards a army that resonates with them. Like if demons are your thing, Chaos is something to look into. When I took this approach however, he was turned off. Paraphrasing here but basically he more or less said that fluff doesn't win battles. I believe he didn't care for my response as I haven't heard back from him since. I said that at the end of the day, the hobby is about fun. I could create a list in about 5 minutes that would wreck tournaments, but my opponents wouldn't have fun. I gave him a example of a tournament I recently attended where a Tau player had 1/3 of his opponents just concede due to bringing a TFG list. He was more than happy "not playing" because he "won". That is all he was concerned about. If "winning" is all one cares about, why not make 0 investment & attend rock, paper, scissors tournaments or checkers or whatever. Like what does it say about someone where winning a match of toy men is more important than the enjoyment of those in your company? Hopefully I am misinterpreting his lack of communication for something it isn't but I think hes upset.

I guess for some people the models really appeal to them. But if they are interested in just winning - they aren't really the type of player I enjoy playing with.

However, there are PLENTY of people in this hobby that DO enjoy that type of play experience. (I have friends that are some of them!)

One of the great things about this hobby is that it can be approached in so many different ways.

While I wouldn't (if I were you) actively discourage your friend from joining this hobby. You can make it clear that you and he probably are coming at it from two different approaches - and those approaches probably mix a bit like oil and water.

Hopefully there is a larger community of 40k around you where your friend can find opponents that play the game in the flavor he enjoys.

I PERSONALLY feel that if people are just interested in the game (not hobby) and competition play, there are probably better games out there for them.

Tau isn't even the worst offender.

he probably lost interest because you made it clear that the "game" is about as lame as playing rock paper scissors

It's a hobby of many parts.

Some people love painting

Some love socialising

Some love assembling and converting

Some love the fluff and story

Some love playing

Some love winning whilst playing

And I'm sure there are many more not to mention various combinations of the above. In the end no single approach is "right". They are all different ways to get involved with the hobby and people choose how to go about it.

Often people might well get involved with just one or two interesting aspects. There are many tales of people who've started just because they wanted to paint a few of the models - next thing they know is they are painting a whole army and going along to tournaments.


Your friend wants to play games and win; no problem with that what so ever so long as he enjoys playing and is a good sport in general (ergo doesn't rage when he loses etc..).
So he's not into the fluff; that's fine and sure he's going to be more competitive whilst he plays - no problem there at all either.

The hobby is large enough to support a wide and varied palette of tastes both in fluff and in approach to the hobby.

I don't want a WAAC competitive match every week, but I sure do enjoy a bit of hardcore competition every now and then. I think the division between tournament play and competitive environments are for just that sort of thing. People who like friendly games can play in friendly matches, and if you want a grudge match, then tournies are your thing. I know players who do one or the other exclusively.

I think bringing WAAC lists all the time to your friendly games is a bit silly, and I think it's definitely silly to bring a 'just for funsies' list to a tournament. (Unless it's an event with a humorous or frivolous theme, of course.)

I think tournaments are for EXACTLY the sort of player you describe your friend as. (And Tyranids are definitely his army. Players who don't care about fluff love Tyranids, since there isn't any! )

That being said, I think that someone with NO interest in the background at all would find a hard time engaging with 40k, although a recent thread on this very site seems to indicate that there are more such players than I would have thought. Still, the background is a huge part of the game, and ignoring it is kind of like going to Red Lobster if you hate seafood. Sure, there's stuff on the menu that you can order, (hell, they'll bend over backwards to accommodate vegetarian requests) but you're missing out on a big part of the experience!

I don't think that the WAAC players have to pick a specific army, though. Even if your friend is a dyed in the wool 'compete til I die' kind of guy, then any army can be a winner, once you get some experience both with it and against other armies under your belt.

In any event, I hope it works out, both for you and your friend.

 Jimsolo wrote:
(And Tyranids are definitely his army. Players who don't care about fluff love Tyranids, since there isn't any! )

It's not that Tyranids don't have fluff; they do. It's just that they sort of ate it along with everything else.

On the subject of fluff I think a lot of people have a very rough idea of the games fluff which is based on common concepts and rough ideas that get thrown around. I suspect a good number who buy the codex (ergo most who play) also read their factions fluff in part or in full. So there's a general rough level; however fewer really dig into the games story background indepth.

But like many things its a growth thing - many might start out not interested but as they get more involved things slip in and they explore within the franchise.

I don't see the point in playing without trying to win. Losing makes me learn and the list progresses from there.

My list is pretty much perfect for my play style. Just because I win a lot doesn't stop the banter and if I get beat every now and again it's fine.

I think you are letting different playstyles and personalities get to you too much.

This is a "problem" I've seen on many different games. There are always those who focus on the winning so much that they forget the game around it.
It saddens me to see people who celebrate after winning a game that either had zero challenge or didn't exist because the opponent quitted. "What are you celebrating for? You didn't do anything..."
But that's not a thing we can judge. People are different and like different things, which is only natural. If someone thinks that this game is all about winning, then he can do whatever he wants IMO.

@Shingen
"Trying different/fluffy units" isn't equivalent to "intentionally losing". I believe everyone tries to win the game. Some just harder than others.

 Jimsolo wrote:
. (And Tyranids are definitely his army. Players who don't care about fluff love Tyranids, since there isn't any! )

at least the nids fluff doesnt change, not like a certain time travelling race of robot pokemon masters :p

pax_imperialis wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
. (And Tyranids are definitely his army. Players who don't care about fluff love Tyranids, since there isn't any! )

at least the nids fluff doesnt change, not like a certain time travelling race of robot pokemon masters :p

Lol, Necron fluff didn't change. It's just that prior to the current codex, THEY didn't have fluff either!

The problem is that without competition there is literally nothing to talk about except paint jobs.

Why compare units, lists, tactics if we are not concerned about winning? The game for me is 90% about preparing for a tournament. That means list building, test games, tweaking, arguing merits and tactics. None of that goes on if the game is "casual" what do you say to a guy who wants feed back on his casual army list? There is none, if the list make him happy then its great. But a guy says he wants a competitive list and I can give him input about units, cost and tactics. The fluff is NOT the interactive part of the game, the rules are the interactive part and they suck. Which is why GW is killing there game. (My bet is that they are pumping sales short term for a sell out to a bigger player like Hasbro.)

blackjack wrote:
The problem is that without competition there is literally nothing to talk about except paint jobs.

Why compare units, lists, tactics if we are not concerned about winning? The game for me is 90% about preparing for a tournament. That means list building, test games, tweaking, arguing merits and tactics. None of that goes on if the game is "casual" what do you say to a guy who wants feed back on his casual army list? There is none, if the list make him happy then its great. But a guy says he wants a competitive list and I can give him input about units, cost and tactics. The fluff is NOT the interactive part of the game, the rules are the interactive part and they suck. Which is why GW is killing there game. (My bet is that they are pumping sales short term for a sell out to a bigger player like Hasbro.)

As I told you in your thread on this same topic - you are simply incorrect.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/570522.page

I can talk forever about this hobby and not talk competition.

I also love how people keep going back to that Hasbro buyout rumor. Been 10-15 years now. Good Lord if it ever DOES happen people will say "See I was right!" Doesn't matter that it happened 10 years after they declared it....

gg Nostrodamus

"What are you celebrating for? You didn't do anything..."

bought army, learned to play with it, beat someone who doesn't want to learn or buy a good army

On the other hand his opponent brough an army he doesn't know or want to know how to play with , which considering how easy mode most armies are in table top gaming means he had to pick the models at random.

If both dudes arrived with unpainted and proxied armies , the one that won did 3 things , the one that gave up after seeing his stuff doesn't work again did , maybe , 1 thing.

I can talk forever about this hobby and not talk competition.

And others can talk about gaming , or painting , or converting never saying a word about fluff , so what kind of an argument is that ?

Let him be competitive then, if that's his thing he will either have a great time, or a horrible time playing (depending on W/L). I believe in playing for fun, there is ALWAYS someone out there who can beat you, either by army selection, luck or strategy. But to each there own, the more players the better.

Makumba wrote:

"What are you celebrating for? You didn't do anything..."

bought army, learned to play with it, beat someone who doesn't want to learn or buy a good army

On the other hand his opponent brough an army he doesn't know or want to know how to play with , which considering how easy mode most armies are in table top gaming means he had to pick the models at random.

If both dudes arrived with unpainted and proxied armies , the one that won did 3 things , the one that gave up after seeing his stuff doesn't work again did , maybe , 1 thing.

I can talk forever about this hobby and not talk competition.

And others can talk about gaming , or painting , or converting never saying a word about fluff , so what kind of an argument is that ?

Because it was in response to Blackjacks statement:

blackjack wrote:
The problem is that without competition there is literally nothing to talk about except paint jobs.

I would (and did) argue that this is completely false. Maybe I'm not understanding what you are saying...

I think everybody comes into a 40K game wanting to win. Its the nature of playing a game, you try to win. Its how you try to win that often splits the population.

Casual players try to win, but they tend to do it while using models/units they like fluff-wise or aesthetically, even if those units are not optimized. Casual players get great enjoyment from playing a hard fought game using a themed fluff list.

Competitive players try to win, but they try to bring the most optimized list possible, typically with little or no thought to fluff or model aesthetics. Competitive players get enjoyment of playing their lists against other optimized lists and finding new power-builds.

One version of fun is no better or worse than the other, but due to the differences in HOW each type tries to win, there tends to be a lot of strife between both sides. Throwing a competitive minded player in with a casual group often ends up in disaster, and vice versa.

Of course, there is a third archetype that nobody likes to mention. The dreaded TFG! There are, of course, versions for both camps. The Casual TFG is the guy that walks around the store, loudly proclaiming how every list being played is horribly broken and unfluffy (no matter what the actual composition is), complains loudly every time he loses using an army that hasn't been updated since 2nd edition (because new units aren't fluffy) and often waxes poetically about the virtues of past editions. The Competitive TFG typically buys and sells armies at the rate of their underwear changes, field the latest net-list against casual players, and often completely avoids playing against true competitive players. The Competitive TFG loves to field tourney lists, but rarely if ever actually plays in tournaments.

i wouldnt give up on him just yet. To someone not already into the game the fluff i just some random storyline. thats somethng that has to grow on you as you learn and experience it.
I'd say, take him to games or a tournament and let him see it firsthand and to see with his own eyes what you mean by TFG and playing for fun and such.

I would (and did) argue that this is completely false. Maybe I'm not understanding what you are saying...

Painiting and modeling has it's own section on all big forums , so if list and tournament talk would be removed , general topics would be spam , people asking for rules without buying books and that is more or less it . Nothing else to talk about .

I'd say, take him to games or a tournament and let him see it firsthand and to see with his own eyes what you mean by TFG and playing for fun and such.

But for him everything that is better then his bad list will be TFG and WAAC , because even medicore list will beat him every time . What he is trying to do now is force his friend to play an army he wants. If he wants that so much , why doesn't he buy 2 armies and let his friend play with one and his friend will buy himself the army he wants and play it in normal games against others.

Win or lose, as long as there is a good narrative i dont really mind. I do enjoy list building but i also enjoy the fluff and the painting, converting and generally just shooting the s**t with people about which primarch would beat which in a fight. Many people spend years doing up cars and never race them, same diff.

Problem is, the game is (has become) really unattractive to competitive players. The guy the OP was talking to probably just realized this and thus wasn't interested.

One part is the very inconsistent rules. Whenever I go to a store or another persons place to play, I have to check with everyone how they play deffrollas, if my nobz can have big shootas, if it's fine to have a space marine captain with two relics and if gretchin can be shot behind an ADL or not.

Second are people overreacting to any kind of competitiveness with WAAC and TFG insults. When things like having a MA warboss tank wounds for my lootaz suddenly becomes a dick move, when moving wounded nobz to the middle of a unit so they can't be shot is called unfair and spreading ork boyz to 2" coherency is (actual quote) "borderline cheating", it takes all the fun out of the game. And It's not just one or two people who act like this, but more like half of any given group of players.

Third is GW continuously forcing you to switch armies to actually stay competitive. The people I play most against play Necrons, Eldar, Tzeench Daemons and Tau, while I play Orks. Go figure.
I was really close to buying a new army (Black Templars) just to have fun playing games again instead of just getting an un-enjoyable and one-sided game all the time. When I was about to click the order button on their homepage, I realized that GW was making me throw 300€+ their way just to enjoy their game again.
Instead I borrowed out my 6000 points of orks to a guy who really enjoys painting and playing apoc games until I feel that playing WH40k with my army is fun again. Which means that its possible to actually use the codex I enjoy and spent a lot of money on without asking my opponent "Sorry, my codex sucks, could you please built a terrible list, so I have a chance of winning?"

Fourth is GW absolutely not giving a damn about their game. I don't care whether its ignorance, some sort of business plan or just idiocy. A game is not healthy when people regularly concede because they are sick of getting hammered by over-efficient artillery, bouncing of invincible death stars or being unable to interact with an army of flying monstrous croissants. No matter which forum or blog you read, conceding has become very common since 6th, where it was nearly unheard of before. In magical land where the rivers are beer and the plants are pretzels this might not be a problem. Everywhere else it is.
Warhammer 40k is not an RPG where balance is not as important because the story comes first. GW didn't write more than a hand full of stories to be experienced on the tabletop, and most of those have been done by forgeworld. So "forge a narrative" is nothing but a lazy lie telling people to make their own awesome story, so they don't have to worry about the terrible game balance. Why are there no campaign books about the three Wars of Armageddon? The Black Crusade? Tyranid Invasion of Ultramar? Reawakening of the Necrons? If we're lucky we get a mission or two, which are just standard games with some gimmicky features. No story to be told.
So GW is neither telling us a good story, neither are they giving us a good strategy game. Which pretty much makes not playing the game the best way to go. Read fluff, build and paint models, put them on your shelf. Which isn't exactly what a competitive player is looking for.

GW and half the community are pretty much telling competitive players to get lost and stay the hell out of their hobby. What's hypocritical is being surprised that people actually do.

Instead I borrowed out my 6000 points of orks to a guy who really enjoys painting and playing apoc games until I feel that playing WH40k with my army is fun again. Which means that its possible to actually use the codex I enjoy and spent a lot of money on without asking my opponent "Sorry, my codex sucks, could you please built a terrible list, so I have a chance of winning?"

Finaly someone understands. It is as if there were 2 options for someone . Buy two armies at the same time . One you want to play and another that maybe your opponents will let you play , or buy a bad army and hope that your opponent stay away from good stuff.

We had 1 [one] necron and 1[one] tau armies before their got a new codex .They also happen to be owned by the same guy who loved robots and manga . World class painting and conversions . The guy works for companies that make toys and models , so he made his own Riptides and suits. His army looks better then one made with FW models , problem is it happens to have 4 broadsides and ton of suits . Is that guy a WAAC/TFG guy or someone who plays tau since they came out and loves anime and robots?

Ah and his necron glow in the dark .

Same for me. The guy playing the tzeench army built it because he loved the idea of tzeench. It was his fluffy army for campaigns and apoc, which struggled (but managed) to beat strong armies. And then, suddenly, screamer star and flying circus.

Makumba wrote:

"What are you celebrating for? You didn't do anything..."

bought army, learned to play with it, beat someone who doesn't want to learn or buy a good army

On the other hand his opponent brough an army he doesn't know or want to know how to play with , which considering how easy mode most armies are in table top gaming means he had to pick the models at random.

If both dudes arrived with unpainted and proxied armies , the one that won did 3 things , the one that gave up after seeing his stuff doesn't work again did , maybe , 1 thing.

If you read my whole post, then you realised that this wasn't only about 40k.
So I'll repeat: I've seen this same thing on many different games.

And I will not be giving applauses to someone who hasn't done anything but spent hundreds of dollars for army that's hardly ever used.

Makumba wrote:
What he is trying to do now is force his friend to play an army he wants

We seem to have read different posts.
The one I read was about guy who had an army he liked, and suggested his friend to do the same. His friend tought that was a bad idea, so the guy came here to ask if his friend's point of view was a good one.

There wasn't any forcing in here, you came up with that all by yourself.

But for him everything that is better then his bad list will be TFG and WAAC , because even medicore list will beat him every time .

Every list that wins isn't a WAAC list.
If I have a list full of Death Company or Banshees, I will not curse my opponent for winning me with his medicore list with some Tactical Squads and Assault Marines.