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Old, old, OLD time 40k player here.... been away doing RL for a few decades.

I have a few different copies of rules since 1987, and in different ways they always stated or implied that there is nothing wrong with using the profile stats of an existing published special character and simply renaming him. But the current standards for calculating or ascribing suitable stats to him are a mystery to me. So far, I haven't been able to find language or FAQ that spells it out.

I'm not interested in trying to play with my uniquely modeled Marauders Captain figure, expecting to be able to just use the Kor'Sarro Khan profile, and have some 'kids' give me a headache about not being able to use Kor'Sarro Khan rules unless it's in a 'White Scars' army, and with the genuine Kor'Sarro Khan figure.

I'm far too OLD and Oldhammer to be comfortable with such an attitude.

It's MY hobby, and I'll do what I want. But I'd like to know in advance what the current standard is, before bothering to bring my force to any strange gaming clubs for the first time in ages.

Can anyone tell me what are the current standards for custom character/special characters rules building and/or use?

I have no issue with someone using a model to represent another character. I'm all about it. The problem is that with the new codex if you use special characters the chapter tactics go with them. For example you can't have Khan and Tigerius in the same army unless you have White Scars WITH Ultramarine allies. Still though if it was just a casual game I won't really care what you did as long as I didn't feel you were ignoring rules for an unfair advantage.

There are none. The rules don't have anything to cover custom characters/vehicles/special rules.

 Ghaz wrote:
There are none. The rules don't have anything to cover custom characters/vehicles/special rules.

That explains why I couldn't find any.

A pity. The 40k rules publications have been steadily redacting more and more of the freedoms first outlined in 1987. And now, this particular part of 'the hobby', the fabrication of unique vehicles and personalities, is wholly abandoned.

It doesn't affect myself. I know how to have my fun. But I feel sad for all the young pups who know nothing of 40k 'fun' but in trying to fabricate army lists that can deliver them 'victory'. As if there were ANY real strategy to be found in 40k, or that winning any battle is what constitutes a successful game.

Well, with some fortune, I might be able to turn some over to Oldhammer and so save their souls.

Thanks guys. If anyone else happens to know of a post-6th ed FAQ that addresses this topic, please point me to it.

Live2sculpt wrote:
I'm not interested in trying to play with my uniquely modeled Marauders Captain figure, expecting to be able to just use the Kor'Sarro Khan profile, and have some 'kids' give me a headache about not being able to use Kor'Sarro Khan rules unless it's in a 'White Scars' army, and with the genuine Kor'Sarro Khan figure.

This is not at all part of the rules. Your model for your own character needs to be WYSIWYG and be a reasonable representation of the character's rules, but you can invent your own paint scheme and fluff, or use your own custom model. Some people may insist that this isn't "legal", but that's just their own personal preference, not the rules of the game.

In the case of space marine characters, however, part of using their rules includes using a specific set of chapter tactics. So, your "Khan" character can have your own name, chapter and paint scheme, but your primary detachment will still use the White Scars chapter tactics (even if you re-name the rule for your fluff). While it might have the rules of a "White Scars" army that's just a convenient label for those rules, and you're free to create your own name for your army's fluff.

The closest you can get to customizing a guy, is to take either a captain or chapter master, and adding gear/relics to him to change how he fights.

For example, I ally my dark angels with space marines and use a geared up SM chapter master as a stand in for Lion El'Johnson after he has awakened. (granted it comes out to be a 300 or so point model but what can you do lol)

That is encouraging.

Well, while I'm at it, I'll explain a bit more about what I'm doing, and folks may make suggestions:

I'm sculpting an old-school 40k army Rogue Trader style. One of the chief limitations that I have set for myself is that no designs can come from later than 1989. Another is that I only sculpt from scratch, and use no manufactured components (excepting my own resin reproductions of course).

In most ways this works out fine, even when observing 6th ed rules. Forge World provides opportunities with such things as the Contemptor Dread to allow me to field my scratch-built Chuck model, or the Proteus Land Raider rules to account for my Hellfire Mk1 builds.

But sometimes there are some snags with the WYSIWYG. For one, I'd like to field a Tech Marine. But by my guidelines (and my pref) there can be no 'servo arm' nonsense attached. I wonder how many people will be okay with a servo arm being substituted with a nice big, old-school, over-sized pipe-wrench.

To say nothing of any added 'harness'.

My limitations can also exclude certain options, such a grav-guns, which did not exist in game up to 1989.

I'm also sad that I can't include a Chaplain in a command squad.

Any thoughts?

First of, I browsed your gallery. Awesome stuff, possibly slightly insane, but awesome.

Using 'counts-as' special characters is a common practice, and I've never heard anyone having a problem with it, as long as your custom model has roughly the right gear and you make it clear before the game begins what your model represents.
A big wrench for a servo-arm sounds appropriate, again, just make sure your opponent knows what it represents and you should be fine. As for the Chaplain, nothing stops you from sticking him in a command squad.

as a fellow "oldhammer', I think that you will find that the majority of the newer players will treat you with respect. I'd say dont worry about it and by all means dont go into it with any preconcieved notions of what to expect.
By all means, dont take "online" attitudes as being exactly what you will see "in the shop" Most people are a little nicer in person. lol

I do it all the time. Maximilian Weisman in 212 Arethusa is my regimental command baneblade, renamed Marshal Orlov Malinenko in Wrath of the Brazen God.

Vaylund Cal, the Medusan Iron Thane, is often my Warlord, Iron Father Ekim Atrophos, of the Logicians chapter.

 Peregrine wrote:

Live2sculpt wrote:
I'm not interested in trying to play with my uniquely modeled Marauders Captain figure, expecting to be able to just use the Kor'Sarro Khan profile, and have some 'kids' give me a headache about not being able to use Kor'Sarro Khan rules unless it's in a 'White Scars' army, and with the genuine Kor'Sarro Khan figure.

This is not at all part of the rules. Your model for your own character needs to be WYSIWYG and be a reasonable representation of the character's rules, but you can invent your own paint scheme and fluff, or use your own custom model. Some people may insist that this isn't "legal", but that's just their own personal preference, not the rules of the game.

In the case of space marine characters, however, part of using their rules includes using a specific set of chapter tactics. So, your "Khan" character can have your own name, chapter and paint scheme, but your primary detachment will still use the White Scars chapter tactics (even if you re-name the rule for your fluff). While it might have the rules of a "White Scars" army that's just a convenient label for those rules, and you're free to create your own name for your army's fluff.

OK this is what I was trying to say. Much better verbalized.

If you wanted to have a Salamander's army which was using a white scar special character and all biker force, as long as it is WYSIWYG, they can be green and lizardy.

Personally, my SCs are all painted like they are from their original clans, and my army is Deffskulls. It helps distinguish 'This is Ghaz, not a Megaboss, this is Wazdakka, not a biker boss'. There is no rule requiring it though. I could easily paint them up to be Blue and fit my theme and still use the Ghaz/Waz rules as long as they are WYSIWYG.

My group regularly does campaigns where you have to make your own SC as your ranking HQ for the army. No copy and paste from the codex, though you can take other SC's rules and mix them up. You come up with what you think is an appropriate points cost. At the reveal meeting to kick things off you introduce the SC and everyone as a whole discusses whether or not the rules/pts are fair and adjust as needed.

We a lot if times allow these characters in friendly games too. I suggest everyone have a go at making their own personal SC!

There is an unofficial rule (at least i think is is unofficial) called The Rule of Cool. Basically if it is WYSIWYG and looks badass, most people will be fine with it.

First off, tell the children they know nothing and can eat it. Assert your oldness by talking about how it was in your day.

Second, I think they may be trying to make 2 different points. The first is that you need to be playing White Scars to be playing the Khan. Maybe that's true, there are all kinds of SM rules about HQ models.

Second, they are trying to say something about WYSIWYG. Make sure your model has the right pieces and you should be fine.

 techsoldaten wrote:
First off, tell the children they know nothing and can eat it. Assert your oldness by talking about how it was in your day.

This works every time.
Either they fall asleep first or you do. Either way you can declare you won the arguement.

And don't forget to gripe about their music being too loud. Got dang kids and their rocket roll music. In my day we had to walk to the game store. 15 miles in the snow. Uphill both ways...

Do you remember when you could make your own independent characters in Warhammer? Pepridge Farms remembers....

 rossp8 wrote:
Do you remember when you could make your own independent characters in Warhammer? Pepridge Farms remembers....

As do I *opens current Grey Knights codex, looks up entry for Grand Master, tear forms in eye* Oh, the nostalgia...

Thanks guys!

Though at the rate I'm going I might not be breaking out my developing force until Kubla-Con in late May.

Just play with... dun dun dun... homerules.

Its not hard. You just find some cool players who don't give a damn about following the rules as written, and just add your own stuff to improve the game to your tastes

 Dakkamite wrote:
Just play with... dun dun dun... homerules.

Its not hard. You just find some cool players who don't give a damn about following the rules as written, and just add your own stuff to improve the game to your tastes

I think 6th is a pretty well built set of rules, and would be glad to use as much of them as possible in a consistent fashion. I'd simply beseech some other players to 'Oldhammer' with them. That is; dropping turn limits, army list restrictions, and victory points calculations, and substituting them with a Game Master in charge of a battle scenario narrative, mission objectives for the other players, and any arbitrations.

But in order to modify something, one must understand what they are starting with first.

I have no problem with counts as so long as it's appropriately modeled with one exception.

Forge World. Along with some awesome models some of them have some very unique and beefcake rules.

I have certain friends who if allowed to play as or proxy forge world would simply run amok with it.

However if you model a terminator character with a storm shield, and thunder hammer, etc and use Lysander's rules that's no problem.

If you use Raven Guard chapter tactics and call them the Pink sharks I have no problem with that.

Throwing 3 drop pods on the table and calling them dread claw assault pods...is a big problem.

Lets face it, warhammer models can be expensive. Not everyone has the cash to throw down to get the all the stuff, or the latest model. Sometimes you want to try out a model, but don't want to shell out the cash and be disappointed in its performance. Understandable.

I count-as all the damn time with my friends, and i don't think i've come across anyone that's been like "HEY, thats not good enough!1" One example are the Tau broadsides. I currently still have the old model for the broadsides (crisis suit with big guns on the shoulders). To add to that, i'm using them as the missilesides rather than heavy rail rifle. My friends do not care at all and i do not think most people would.

I even substitute my devilfish for hammerheads some times because i do not have to bits to convert it. I just make sure i bring all the relevant items i need to ensure it's fair for my opponent. This means: 1) make sure the model is about the same size as the model i am substituting. 2) Make sure i have a gun or equivalent size gun it would shoot to measure distance from the barrel (Devilfish with a railgun tapped on where the gun would be). 3) I ask my opponent before had if it is ok for me to do so.

I am all but sure most people would not have a problem with this unless you're bringing a crisis suit to sub in for a riptide or something. You'll always run into TFG, but they're probably not worth playing against anyway if they're gonna act like that.

Above all else its a hobby about making really cool figures. I do not mind when someone puts down a crisis suit and it has weapons glued on. He glued the weapons on because he liked how they looked and that's 100% ok. I do not care so long as he let's me know what they are.

AnonAmbientLight wrote:
Lets face it, warhammer models can be expensive. Not everyone has the cash to throw down to get the all the stuff, or the latest model. Sometimes you want to try out a model, but don't want to shell out the cash and be disappointed in its performance. Understandable.

LOL I just want to play with the models that I want to play with. In MY case, each figure I sculpt is worth $350+ of my precious studio time. Each modified resin copy is worth no less than half of that. In the end, My 2000 point sized army will have a $3,000 to $5,000 price tag. And because it is an owned IP of another entity, I can't recoup that cost.

I've used all sorts of crazy models over the years to represent other things, and never once have I had anyone refuse to play me because of it. As far as the rules go, as long as it's a fair representation of the model you're proxying for then it's fine. The line gets drawn when you start 'modelling for advantage' by using a smaller model to get better LoS blocks, or a much larger model to get more base to base contact etc... Ninety nine times out of a hundred as long as the model is a similar size then who care's what it looks like? Use lego for all I care, let's get our dice rolls on!

 Live2sculpt wrote:

AnonAmbientLight wrote:
Lets face it, warhammer models can be expensive. Not everyone has the cash to throw down to get the all the stuff, or the latest model. Sometimes you want to try out a model, but don't want to shell out the cash and be disappointed in its performance. Understandable.

LOL I just want to play with the models that I want to play with. In MY case, each figure I sculpt is worth $350+ of my precious studio time. Each modified resin copy is worth no less than half of that. In the end, My 2000 point sized army will have a $3,000 to $5,000 price tag. And because it is an owned IP of another entity, I can't recoup that cost.

That's what i mean. It's about pushing really cool looking plastic toys around and pretending they get blown up. It shouldn't matter what it looks like, so long as it's generally the same size. I wouldn't play against a guy who put a marine on the table and told me it was land raider lol.

AnonAmbientLight wrote:
Lets face it, warhammer models can be expensive. Not everyone has the cash to throw down to get the all the stuff, or the latest model. Sometimes you want to try out a model, but don't want to shell out the cash and be disappointed in its performance. Understandable.

This is where an Oldhammer like me drops out of the subject, because that sentiment doesn't apply. If ALL a player cares about is how a model 'performs' in a game, to the extent that you simply seek the pleasure of using the rules for it, but not care about the model..... Well, that is just backwards to the way 40k began, and how we made it popular back in the 80s.

You should collect models that you think look cool. You should play with armies that have stories that you like. You should play battles with interesting and fun narratives. And you shouldn't give a damn whether you loose every time or not. The rules are made to give players a shared language to enjoy the figures with, There IS NO strategy in 40k rules. To pretend otherwise is a farce.

Games Day was once just a great way to gather and conspire with fellow gamers, but the 'tournament rules' that were used in Games Day competitions ended up being put into the game itself, and now everyone under 30 years old is convinced that 40k is nothing but a competition to be wrapped up with a forced handshake.

The concept of BOTH sides loosing and EVERYONE ending the game with a PIZZA after NINE hours of playing and laughing is sadly lost on too many players.

yeah just play to have fun, no one in their right mind would turn you down for what you seem to want to do...

my "coteaz" has been a custom model for over a year, rule of cool and all that... no tournament or casual game has had problems with it..

Im an oldskool guy like you too... I feel cheesy just using special characters without permission now! i still ask a lot of the time too!


so yeah, dont worry about it, you sound like a fun guy to play and thats what really matters,

 Live2sculpt wrote:

AnonAmbientLight wrote:
Lets face it, warhammer models can be expensive. Not everyone has the cash to throw down to get the all the stuff, or the latest model. Sometimes you want to try out a model, but don't want to shell out the cash and be disappointed in its performance. Understandable.

This is where an Oldhammer like me drops out of the subject, because that sentiment doesn't apply. If ALL a player cares about is how a model 'performs' in a game, to the extent that you simply seek the pleasure of using the rules for it, but not care about the model..... Well, that is just backwards to the way 40k began, and how we made it popular back in the 80s.

You should collect models that you think look cool. You should play with armies that have stories that you like. You should play battles with interesting and fun narratives. And you shouldn't give a damn whether you loose every time or not. The rules are made to give players a shared language to enjoy the figures with, There IS NO strategy in 40k rules. To pretend otherwise is a farce.

Games Day was once just a great way to gather and conspire with fellow gamers, but the 'tournament rules' that were used in Games Day competitions ended up being put into the game itself, and now everyone under 30 years old is convinced that 40k is nothing but a competition to be wrapped up with a forced handshake.

The concept of BOTH sides loosing and EVERYONE ending the game with a PIZZA after NINE hours of playing and laughing is sadly lost on too many players.

That's not what i mean. I don't mean to come off as "i only buy models that are good." I mean to say, i wouldn't want to buy a $45 shadowsun unless i have a play thru and see how she handles in my army, or how i want to use her. This circles back to the argument that "counts as" is a valid way to play and only TFG would have a problem with it. Sometimes people want to play test before they drop money on this expensive game, and that's ok too.

I'm a poor college kid, so i'm trying to spend money on things that i know i will use a lot, and try not to get too much "extra", if that makes sense.