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His armour says he denies the witch on a 3+ but he also has the adamantium will, so would he deny the witch on a roll of 2+?

Edit: Looks like I read his rule wrong. It is not deny the witch but a simply 3+ save agaisnt it. I guess the question is does he get to make two saves or just one?

Yes

Hmmm. Wouldn't page 3 and the order of modifiers be relevent here? 1st adamantium will lowers it, then the armor sets it and the net result is a 3+?

 DJGietzen wrote:
Hmmm. Wouldn't page 3 and the order of modifiers be relevent here? 1st adamantium will lowers it, then the armor sets it and the net result is a 3+?

The armor isn't a modifier, it just is his DtW save

this is like the forewarning grimore argument all over again

Why isn't it a modifier? The armor modifies the standard DtW by setting it to 3+. But you;re right in that thread was relevant The armor sets the number you need to get and adamantium will adds 1 to the number you actually get. So you need a 3+ and can roll a 2,3,4,5,6 or 7. and that's essentially the same as a 2+.

Yep. 2+ is my understanding. Take that Eldar.

 DJGietzen wrote:
Hmmm. Wouldn't page 3 and the order of modifiers be relevent here? 1st adamantium will lowers it, then the armor sets it and the net result is a 3+?

An argument, and a rather compelling one at that, could be made that the DtW value provided by Horus's armor is a set modifier. Set modifier are always applied last in our order of operations, so I believe Necrosis may be right. It really depends on how the rule is worded.

Multiple modifer's apply to a models characteristics, of which DtW isn't one.

 grendel083 wrote:
Multiple modifer's apply to a models characteristics, of which DtW isn't one.

So what I'm hearing is that the only rule we have that could possibly resolve this debate doesn't apply?

 alienvalentine wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
Multiple modifer's apply to a models characteristics, of which DtW isn't one.

So what I'm hearing is that the only rule we have that could possibly resolve this debate doesn't apply?

The one rule needed is "Adamantium Will".
As DJGietzen pointed out the DtW save isn't being modified. So the Multiple Modifiers rules doesn't matter anyway.
The +1 is being applied to the roll itself.

It seems to me this isn't a debate at all. Even if the modifies were applied set-last (which there does not seem to be any supporting rules for) the wording of Adamantium Will does not actually modify the deny the witch, so it isn't applied as a modifier. It merely gives a +1 bonus to the roll (such that rolling a 2 is treated as rolling a 3) effectively giving Horus a 2+ DTW but not *technically* doing so.

Horus is my love..my need...my precious

 alienvalentine wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:
Hmmm. Wouldn't page 3 and the order of modifiers be relevent here? 1st adamantium will lowers it, then the armor sets it and the net result is a 3+?

An argument, and a rather compelling one at that, could be made that the DtW value provided by Horus's armor is a set modifier. Set modifier are always applied last in our order of operations, so I believe Necrosis may be right. It really depends on how the rule is worded.

To be a set modifier you have to gave a value first.

@grendal: RAW you are correct, but then we have no guidelines for when similar situations arise with things that are not characteristics. Page 3 serves as the best possible evidence of RAI for those otherwise unregulated situations.

@ nosferatu: I don't follow you. Pg 68 of the BRB gives us the check at a 6+. and Horus's armor modifies that check by setting it to 3+ correct?

Well, reading through it, the rule actually never mentions Deny the Witch, it just states Horus has a 3+ save against psychic powers thansk to his armour. An argument could be made that you take a regular DtW, effectively a 5+ thanks to Adamantium will, and then the 3+ of the armour - slightly worse than a 2+ DtW. It doesn't appear to be mentioned in any FAQs, so it could certainly see an argument for this point of view.

thisisnotaseriousaccount wrote:
Well, reading through it, the rule actually never mentions Deny the Witch, it just states Horus has a 3+ save against psychic powers thansk to his armour. An argument could be made that you take a regular DtW, effectively a 5+ thanks to Adamantium will, and then the 3+ of the armour - slightly worse than a 2+ DtW. It doesn't appear to be mentioned in any FAQs, so it could certainly see an argument for this point of view.

I'll refer to the Space Wolf FAQ:

Q: Can I attempt to use a Rune Priest’s runic weapon, a Wolf Tail Talisman and make a Deny the Witch roll to nullify an enemy psychic power?
A: No. You can only make a single attempt to prevent an enemy psychic power, so choose your method carefully.

So if it's not a DtW from the armour, it would be one (3+) or the other (5+)

 Quanar wrote:

thisisnotaseriousaccount wrote:
Well, reading through it, the rule actually never mentions Deny the Witch, it just states Horus has a 3+ save against psychic powers thansk to his armour. An argument could be made that you take a regular DtW, effectively a 5+ thanks to Adamantium will, and then the 3+ of the armour - slightly worse than a 2+ DtW. It doesn't appear to be mentioned in any FAQs, so it could certainly see an argument for this point of view.

I'll refer to the Space Wolf FAQ:

Q: Can I attempt to use a Rune Priest’s runic weapon, a Wolf Tail Talisman and make a Deny the Witch roll to nullify an enemy psychic power?
A: No. You can only make a single attempt to prevent an enemy psychic power, so choose your method carefully.

So if it's not a DtW from the armour, it would be one (3+) or the other (5+)

The DtW denies the power, the save would be against wounds from a power.

rigeld2 wrote:
The DtW denies the power, the save would be against wounds from a power.

The OP said it was a Deny, the guy I responded to said it wasn't, I don't have the book so can't say either way.
If it's a Deny, it stacks with AW.
If it's a save, it wouldn't work against most Maledictions.
If it's closer to a Runepriest thingamajig, then the FAQ should be relevant.

 Quanar wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
The DtW denies the power, the save would be against wounds from a power.

The OP said it was a Deny, the guy I responded to said it wasn't, I don't have the book so can't say either way.
If it's a Deny, it stacks with AW.
If it's a save, it wouldn't work against most Maledictions.
If it's closer to a Runepriest thingamajig, then the FAQ should be relevant.

That was my mistake, I misread it.

what book is the armor in?

 DJGietzen wrote:
what book is the armor in?

Horus Heresy vol. 1
Page 247

ok, got it. Relevant rule coming in hot

The armour also negates any psychic attack directed at the
Warmaster or any effect that would adversely modify his characteristic
profile on a D6 roll of 3+.

Thats not a DtW roll. While it serves a similar function it is its own rule. Technically Horus has two ways to negate psychic attacks tossed at his unit. He can Deny the Witch or let the armor try and handle it, but not both. On his own the Hours Dtw at a 5+ or the armor negate it at a 3+. Put Horus in a situation where he can get some help from a couple psykers in his unit and you can bring his DtW down to a 2+ but his armor would stay a 3+.

Why can't he use both? From that wording he can use DtW and his armour.

GW has stated you can only use one method to negate a power. It is in a Space Wolves FAQ so you have some wiggle room for argument but I think the RAI is clear.

 DJGietzen wrote:
Technically Horus has two ways to negate psychic attacks tossed at his unit.

Hate to be picky, but his armour only allows you to negate powers directed at him. Not his unit.

Based on DJ's post I would say only take one of the rolls.

 grendel083 wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:
Technically Horus has two ways to negate psychic attacks tossed at his unit.

Hate to be picky, but his armour only allows you to negate powers directed at him. Not his unit.

If the warmaster is part of a unit and a psychic attack is directed at that unit, the psychic attack has been directed at the warmaster. If the psychic attack is directed at a specific model in the unit, but not the warmaster then the psychic attack has neither been directed at the unit, nor has it been directed at the warmaster.

 DJGietzen wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:
Technically Horus has two ways to negate psychic attacks tossed at his unit.

Hate to be picky, but his armour only allows you to negate powers directed at him. Not his unit.

If the warmaster is part of a unit and a psychic attack is directed at that unit, the psychic attack has been directed at the warmaster. If the psychic attack is directed at a specific model in the unit, but not the warmaster then the psychic attack has neither been directed at the unit, nor has it been directed at the warmaster.

Not so.
As an Independent Character, the Warmaster is a normal member of the unit for all rules purposes. Not the other way round.
The power is directed at the unit, not the Warmaster.

Attacks directed at a unit are attacks directed at all models in the unit. As you said, the IC is a member of that unit so any attack that is directed at the unit is directed at the IC just as it is directed at every other model in the unit.

The Warmaster is part of the unit so of course it's directed at him along with all other members of the unit.

I have been playing it he has 3+ to ignore the power then +1 to the DtW roll.