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So I just had a bit of an idea...

I have no interest personally in owning a gaming shop (well, I do, however I am in no position to do so), but am always thinking up interesting, at least in my mind, ways of making money as different business ideas pop into my head.

We have seen some folks open up a "gaming pub". What other ideas have the folks of Dakka had that would/could set their store apart?

Personally, I just thought as I personally don't game much any more, but I still enjoy painting... What if, as part of the store, the shop had armies available for rent?? I'm thinking decently painted (table top standard), but generic armies... your standard UM marines, Word Bearers, standard Eldar, traditional Cygnar/Khador, etc. colors. DnD/RPG minis, etc.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
So I just had a bit of an idea...

I have no interest personally in owning a gaming shop (well, I do, however I am in no position to do so), but am always thinking up interesting, at least in my mind, ways of making money as different business ideas pop into my head.

We have seen some folks open up a "gaming pub". What other ideas have the folks of Dakka had that would/could set their store apart?

Personally, I just thought as I personally don't game much any more, but I still enjoy painting... What if, as part of the store, the shop had armies available for rent?? I'm thinking decently painted (table top standard), but generic armies... your standard UM marines, Word Bearers, standard Eldar, traditional Cygnar/Khador, etc. colors. DnD/RPG minis, etc.

It's an interesting idea, but what would the rental fees be ? They'd have to low enough as to be reasonable, but high enough to make people want to invest in their own army.

A game stores ultimate goal is to sell retail product to a very small, niche, consumer base. You don't want to proffer ideas that are going to more or less interfere with that.

At first glance its a good idea to let people drive before they buy, so to speak, but as a game store owner, you shouldn't want that - well, past demos at small sizes to well, demo, a game to a client. You don't want to provide them with a vector that circumvents the very lifeblood of your business model - purchases. You should love, encourage, and all but propose to gamers like me - gamers with good incomes, a lot of which is disposable, and raging cases of gamer ADD. Reason being is that these are the people that will pump a few hundred bucks into a skirmish army, and three months later decide its not for them and build a whole new one.

... the real rub is how to keep your patrons coming to you to buy product, and not the omni-present spectre of cheaper online alternatives. If you figure this out, you are a smart, smart man. Because it's the rare game store owner who can.


.. I love my local LGS (Shameless Plug: Battleground Games and Hobbies, Plainville, MA - you guys rock!), they have great terrain, terrific staff, great selection, and if they happen to not have what i want - when i order it, they email and PM me on their forums that it's in. They offer an incentive - you buy 100.00 worth of stuff, you get 10% off your next purchase. Between that and shipping charges, that's enough for me to buy from them for my GW purchases at the least. I probably play there less than 30% of my total gaming time, but i like to support them.

Sure, in the end, i probably pay a little more, but i typically buy in 50-100 increments, which means if i'm paying 10 bucks for shipping for such a purchase, then its worth it for me to get the 10% off and no shipping charge and have that overage go to the store to support it. Plus, as noted, the staff are really great, they have great tables, and it's an all around awesome LGS - probably the best i've ever visited, and i've visited a *lot* of them.

What they've done though is figure out a model with their mini's portfolio to keep someone coming in and purchasing rather than resorting to online purchases. That's what a successful game store, at the end of the day, through all the myriad components that contribute to it, needs to do, with a large enough regional base of customers that do so to support the store, keep it open, and turn a profit enough to make it worthwhile.

Rentable armies look like a good idea at first glance, but if i rent that army 3-5 times and say "Hell, Khador isn't for me after all, i'm a cygnar guy. " Then i don't invest in that Khador army *at all*. Whereas i might demo khador, say "wow this is awesome" - buy 50 points of Khador (dating myself here, almost said 750 points, heh...), then three months later say "Ya know what, i'm going to build a cygnar army now because Ecaine is awesome!". Wham... twice the investment from the same customer.

I know that sounds cynical, but you want the guys (and gals, no sexism intended), who are going to come in, get a demo game or two, say "i'm all in !", buy an army, and months to a year later say "Ya know what, Army X isn't my thing, i'm going to get Army Y". Rentable armies impedes that unless the player really loves both armies.

 Haight wrote:

Rentable armies look like a good idea at first glance, but if i rent that army 3-5 times and say "Hell, Khador isn't for me after all, i'm a cygnar guy. " Then i don't invest in that Khador army *at all*.

I know that sounds cynical, but you want the guys (and gals, no sexism intended), who are going to come in, get a demo game or two, say "i'm all in !", buy an army, and months to a year later say "Ya know what, Army X isn't my thing, i'm going to get Army Y". Rentable armies impedes that unless the player really loves both armies.

Well, as I said, they'd be heavily generic forces for whichever game they are for... this way, you can bring in Bob from your favorite pub, introduce him to the game (especially if you don't have a 2nd army of whichever game), and hopefully it will spark enough interest to invest in his/her own force. Perhaps, if someone did have rentable armies, there'd have to be a limit on the number of times that individual person can rent?

I mean, I have seen plenty of stores that use minis in their painting "classes" that ultimately build up a decent sized display army, but its just that... display. Which, to me, seems an even larger waste of space and possible income than if you were to rent that same army out for a game.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Personally, I just thought as I personally don't game much any more, but I still enjoy painting... What if, as part of the store, the shop had armies available for rent?? I'm thinking decently painted (table top standard), but generic armies... your standard UM marines, Word Bearers, standard Eldar, traditional Cygnar/Khador, etc. colors. DnD/RPG minis, etc.

One thing to be very concerned about here is that many people don't even treat their own models very well (throwing them carelessly into boxes, broken detail bits everywhere, etc), so a rental army is probably going to see even worse treatment. How much time and effort are you willing to spend repairing damage to the rental armies?

 Peregrine wrote:


One thing to be very concerned about here is that many people don't even treat their own models very well (throwing them carelessly into boxes, broken detail bits everywhere, etc), so a rental army is probably going to see even worse treatment. How much time and effort are you willing to spend repairing damage to the rental armies?

Could be fixed by an additional fee above and beyond "fair wear and tear" And as I said, I have almost no intentions of starting my own store. This thread was more a place to give voice to some of the more unique or "Crazy" ideas that people may have had in their "dream store" ideas.

I've always thought that a gaming store that is a also a bookstore (probably specialising in sci-fi/fantasy) would do well, or at least be awesome (although that could be just because I love bookstores). I'm not entirely sure what purpose it would serve having a book shop, but it's possible that it would expand the business in both halves. If someone came in looking for a few sci-fi books, for example, and then stumbled on some guys playing 40k, then there's every chance they'll take a passing interest which could translate to a sale.

Also, with there being fewer and fewer book shops on the high street, and internet book retailers undercutting prices by more and more, a book store that offers a 'consumer experience' is going to be able to compete. If it's just a case of wanting a book, you'd find it cheaper online, but if you could head down to the store, pay a bit more but also get a gaming/RPG session in, then it offers something the online stores can't.

Like I say, it probably makes no business sense, but it would be cool.

The thing is what is it that the few bookstores that are left do to make ends meet - sell drinks/food.

Food/drink outlets in high street locations make allot of money so I can only really see the Pub/Café crossover with a game store really making much sense financially.

I'd happily own/run a FLGs that had a bar/restaurant included but how long before the FLGs part becomes the sideline?

Out in the Seattle area, we have a place called Card Kingdom which incorporates a game store (mostly Magic but some tabletops set aside for minis) with a bar/cafe. They seem to be doing okay.

 Breotan wrote:
Out in the Seattle area, we have a place called Card Kingdom which incorporates a game store (mostly Magic but some tabletops set aside for minis) with a bar/cafe. They seem to be doing okay.

I would actually consider playing Magic if those aged <21 couldn't even get into the store. That's a great idea.

Plus... beer.

MadmanMSU wrote:

 Breotan wrote:
Out in the Seattle area, we have a place called Card Kingdom which incorporates a game store (mostly Magic but some tabletops set aside for minis) with a bar/cafe. They seem to be doing okay.

I would actually consider playing Magic if those aged <21 couldn't even get into the store. That's a great idea.

Plus... beer.

It's definitely a great idea, however I would say for any of the more, competitive events, the bar should be closed.... I know nerds can argue something fierce when they think theyre right, but throw in alcohol, and things could get interesting quick.

The FLGS where I tend to go is also a cafe that serves a range of hot and cold sandwiches, hot dogs, breakfast items, and coffee drinks. Also maintains a range of candies, chips, and canned and bottled drinks.

He's talked about getting a beer & wine license for the store, but in that municipality, the cost for the license is more of an initial outlay than he is willing to make, especially when he's trying to expand the square footage of the store to accomodate more clientelle. Then, there's the increased cost of liability insurance to consider, too. The sales would make all that back, of course, but it's a lower priority than getting more space.

Hmm, if they were to have armies in the store/place, I'm not sure if you could get away with renting them out, as it seems more like a free thing, if you want to play there. However, if people plan to take them from the building, then renting may work indeed. Not sure how many people would do that however.
The bar combination seems ok too, if you like drinking that is However, everyone likes food so maybe a buffet combination instead?
Also, as well as gaming, like you said you do more painting than gaming, there could be a business that's based around people coming to the store to paint socially, and perhaps for a fee you get the use of a certain amount of paints in-house.
(I'm aware these ideas may already exist but that's my thoughts anyway)

I've seen a coffee house/cafe also be a gaming store, that worked out okay....was only limited and eventually moved to a different location due to size.

If you have a bog standard rental army what's to stop someone using that and the only buying one or two special choices to compliment it. At that point instead of them buying into an army they are buying into bits of an army.

Whilst that might encourage them to branch out its more likely that you'd end up attracting more people who can't actually afford an army playing. They'd then be competing for the rental armies and the pressure would be on you to provide not more models for sale; but instead more models for playing.

It's quite a shift in the business model. It might be able to work; but it might also simply increase freeloaders without increasing your profits.

Ideally you want people to get hooked on the demo game and then say "ok I'm having fun; I'll buy an army". If they are already able to game without having to buy an army they won't.


Also consider time, a single army rented out is going to be in use for a good hour or more and might only be usable twice a gaming night. Plus most stores only run a couple of gaming nights so the potential hours where the rental army can earn money is quite small.

I can't see rental armies working somehow - cripes people piss and whine on Dakka when its suggested that they might have to pay to us a table (you would at a snooker club/poll hall/swimming pool/ floodlit sports pitch/golf course/etc).

People would also complain that its not up to date/competitive enough/painted the right colour.

I think that it would be a hiding to noting really and people are quite happy to lend armies at clubs here anyway.

I don't think the revenue would be worth the space used to store it and time used to paint and maintain it.

I don't see the negative impact "rental" armies would have. Do y'all really think customers would rely on only using the rental army and never making purchases?

If that's the case, they were never going to be a customer anyway. What person genuinely interested in wargaming doesn't want to have his own models? And who wants to be that guy who is always using the rental army?

I think at the very least it would encourage more gaming in the store, and it is a pretty standard rule in retail that the more time you can get people to spend in the store, the more sales you will get in the long run.

Thinking about playing Infinity, but aren't sure you really want to get into the game? Drop by when folks are playing Infinity at the FLGS and borrow the rental army. Considering making a Tyranid army but aren't sure you're going to enjoy playing Tyranids? Borrow the rental army.

You wouldn't have to know how to build an army list, you'd just grab the ready-made rental army, pick up a copy of the list, and give it a whirl.

It seems like a fine idea to me, assuming the cost of producing, maintaining, and managing the rental armies is acceptable. I would think that they should be free to use though, with a 'please put them back into their case properly and treat them nicely' caveat.

We had a place around here (well, it was in delaware) called Rogues Den a while back. They didn't last too long. It was a huge space (probably with huge rent) with tons of gaming tables, a cafe and a game shop area. I dunno what drama lead up to it closing down, but I got the idea that they mostly sold cheap food and drinks and made it a big place to just hang out, and didn't focus enough on the game shop, so not enough people bought their stuff there.

There might be some shops that do good mixing the 2, but I really think you need to be 1 or the other. A good game shop focused on selling retail and making money selling games with some refreshments or even just a vending machine in the back for players.

Or, make it a real restaurant / bar where people are allowed to play games while they eat. They can sit at a booth and play card games or whatever while they chomp on burgers, or play 40K on the big tables in the back room, with some pub tables next to them for the food. But customers come in knowing they're getting food and playing, not playing and maybe ordering a soda.

I think a gaming themed restaurant or pub would be a great idea, but it has to have great food, not cheapy frozen crap you can get anywhere. You'll need to cater to people who just want to eat and go, and also let people play games too. I think there was a Kickstarter recently for a club that wanted to open a restaurant or bar and have a dedicated place for people to play, seemed like a cool idea.

weeble1000 wrote:
I don't see the negative impact "rental" armies would have. Do y'all really think customers would rely on only using the rental army and never making purchases?

If that's the case, they were never going to be a customer anyway. What person genuinely interested in wargaming doesn't want to have his own models? And who wants to be that guy who is always using the rental army?

Well if the shop maintains several rental armies the stigma would vanish.

Furthermore you forget armies are expensive, bulky, take time to put together, take time to paint etc... A fair few people would be more than happy to cut out all those aspects and just game with the rental army. Now that does mean that it leaves the option open to attracting a cheaper market customer who can't afford/havespace/have time to do the whole army building aspect; however because they are paying a lot lot less you've got to get a lot lot more of them. That, of course, means you've got to both have a big store to house all those people with gaming tables and also maintain quite a few armies to fill that niche.

Thing is most stores also already HAVE A rental army setup. It's the demo army that you can often use a couple of times to get a feel for the game for free. Thereafter if you're hooked you pay the fee (collecting an army) to continue.
Also don't forget many players often have their own spare armies and quite a few stores are happy to store peoples armies on site. So now your rental army has to compete with Dave - Dave who's a nice chap who will let you try out an army for free that he owns. Suddenly your rental army is competing with free so that cuts down its market yet again.

In the end it could work; but I see it as the store having to put quite a lot into getting such a system running with a lot of risk that it just backfires and fails to actually transform into higher profits.

Regarding the potential problem of "Bar + TFG = Fight" I really don't see that at HMGS conventions. Beer is widely available but most of the Flames of War and other tournament players don't seem to have a problem with drinking and gaming. In fact most of the problems exist with the one or two "TFG" types who apparently do not drink during the tournament. That might be different with the adult Warhammer crowd though.

OT: Most people I've met who are into miniatures want to play with their own stuff. If they play with other people miniatures it's usually at a convention where they're trying out a game or scenario. Those are historical conventions. What I'm hinting at is if you do the same thing for Fantasy and Sci/Fi games by providing loaner armies I'm not seeing the downside much. If most people have the same "problem" I do that would encourage me to "start" that army if I liked it because I "want my own" version of it. I'm cheap and rental armies would be a nice way for me to try something out before buying into it.

I'm not the type that buys one army but then moves onto another one. If I have any doubt at all about an army I just don't buy it. I'll maybe look around for a friend who has it so I can try it. Maybe it's my age.

There are a few centres dotted about that provide the whole experience; full scenery, armies and scenario, in a kind of hosted situation, and seem to do fairly well. I don't think the same would work for rental armies though; you'd spend a lot of time/money maintaining it. You could, however, have used/ready made armies available for sale and let people trial them with a deposit, and if they break it they buy it or replace it.

If I had the money, I'd set up a cafe/book/comic store with a small gaming space/store attached. Have a range of stuff to buy, enough scenery and space to host gaming nights and a small (regularly updated) library to read over a coffee.

The cafe would be the main source of the money, with everything else being supplemental income and provide the value add / reason to visit my place.

MadmanMSU wrote:

 Breotan wrote:
Out in the Seattle area, we have a place called Card Kingdom which incorporates a game store (mostly Magic but some tabletops set aside for minis) with a bar/cafe. They seem to be doing okay.

I would actually consider playing Magic if those aged <21 couldn't even get into the store. That's a great idea.

Plus... beer.

It seems like a good idea, but it opens up lots and lots of additional business headaches.

For one thing you're splitting your model - bar or retail outlet ?

Now you need a refrigerator, ice freezers, compressors for the kegs, taps, ... and you have to retain a bartender (probably more like 3). How packed do you think a gaming space / bar is going to be ? Bartenders in the states live on tips, if your bar is not packed thursday through sunday, expect huge turnover in your bartenders as they head for greener pastures.

Also, now you need to have insurance that covers if you over serve a patron. You also get to deal with the local police randomly conducting carding / underage serving stings.


To say nothing at all of liquor license fees - which, depending on locale, might not even be possible to get, and are typically hugely expensive and political to acquire. For instance, in Providence, RI, there are a set number of liquor licenses. Want one ? you have to buy it from a holder. If an establishment goes out of business for whatever reason (or has it revoked), you have to go through a lengthy bureaucratic process to apply. Officially i think the fee is like 20k, but it might be 50k, i can't quire remember. Tha'ts a HUGE additional amount to your startup capital costs. It's even worse if you are buying one out from an existing holder. I have heard scuttlebutt of them going for a quarter million in the past (anecdotal, and i can't prove it, but still.... safe to assume much higher than the official channel price).


It sounds like a neat idea to a patron who likes beer and games, but i almost can't imagine this working if you know about both bar and retail entrepreneurship.


----------


A cafe i can see as possibly feasible, but the moment you introduce beer and liquor that equation gets very difficult. Bars are a difficult model (high failure rate), as are retail stores, and the microcosm of gamestores within retail are even worse. This would be a gigantic uphill struggle.

@Haight: In most areas, you don't need a licquor license or a bartender if you're only serving beer and/or wine.

For example, in the muncipality of the store I mentioned above, here are some of the relevant guidelines. An actual "bartender" (licensed and all) is only required with a licquor license, which costs $5K/year. If you want a beer license, it's $600/year, $1000/year if you want Sunday sales. The wine license is the same. (So, if you want beer and wine, it's $1200/$1600 depending on whether you want a license to see on Sunday). This is the by the drink license fee; if you want to sell by the bottle (like a package store), the licensing is different.

Probably the biggest potential headache from a financial side is the liability. The business insurance policy's premium is noticeably higher if alcohol is served. Normally, having a trained and certified bartender can reduce this premium by a bit, but if you're not serving licquor and don't have a bartender, you don't get that discount.

Also most stores would only want to do bar stuff on a limited basis (select nights/days) or have a store split into two parts so that they can keep the under 21 players.

They need them as that's the core recruitment age range for new customers (who one day become the new adults). IF the store cuts down on recruitment that could seriously harm its long term viability.

There's a gaming tavern in the Seattle area - Everett, WA to be exact. Seems to be doing fine although I haven't been there myself. When they first started I heard the food was something to be desired, but they since update the menu. So I guess that's one example of your idea working.

Saldiven wrote:
@Haight: In most areas, you don't need a licquor license or a bartender if you're only serving beer and/or wine.

For example, in the muncipality of the store I mentioned above, here are some of the relevant guidelines. An actual "bartender" (licensed and all) is only required with a licquor license, which costs $5K/year. If you want a beer license, it's $600/year, $1000/year if you want Sunday sales. The wine license is the same. (So, if you want beer and wine, it's $1200/$1600 depending on whether you want a license to see on Sunday). This is the by the drink license fee; if you want to sell by the bottle (like a package store), the licensing is different.

Probably the biggest potential headache from a financial side is the liability. The business insurance policy's premium is noticeably higher if alcohol is served. Normally, having a trained and certified bartender can reduce this premium by a bit, but if you're not serving liquor and don't have a bartender, you don't get that discount.

I can only assume you do not live in the south Here we need license for each type of liquor you sell. Want to sell Beer and Wine? need a license. Want to sell mixed drinks? That's another license. And you must get permission from the local government to get those licenses. In some cases is a game of mother may I with no reason needed if they tell you know.

Saldiven wrote:
@Haight: In most areas, you don't need a licquor license or a bartender if you're only serving beer and/or wine.

For example, in the muncipality of the store I mentioned above, here are some of the relevant guidelines. An actual "bartender" (licensed and all) is only required with a licquor license, which costs $5K/year. If you want a beer license, it's $600/year, $1000/year if you want Sunday sales. The wine license is the same. (So, if you want beer and wine, it's $1200/$1600 depending on whether you want a license to see on Sunday). This is the by the drink license fee; if you want to sell by the bottle (like a package store), the licensing is different.

Probably the biggest potential headache from a financial side is the liability. The business insurance policy's premium is noticeably higher if alcohol is served. Normally, having a trained and certified bartender can reduce this premium by a bit, but if you're not serving licquor and don't have a bartender, you don't get that discount.

All valid points, though i'm curious where you're from (you sound like you know the Servery industry, but i can tell you in most parts New England, its much more expensive than that, but i can only definitely speak to MA and RI from my experience). I can't imagine beer and wine sales alone supporting a staff member, insurance, trained carding agent, fridge, etc., and all the other overhead and issues that comes with alcohol sales in a retail environment. The costs are going to be higher in more highly regulated states.

I mean, if this were a viable business model... why aren't there more of them ? I can understand a place here or there as a pithy anomaly, but if this were truly hitting on something, why haven't more cropped up?

I ask this because i know a store owner in this area that looked into doing this (his was "nightclub meets game store" as a business model - a laid back lounge with drinks and atmosphere where games were played and sold). And when he sat down with a business analyst and an accountant and ran the math for what it would take to do this in Rhode Island, he came to the conclusion he'd have to be out of his fething mind to even attempt it. And thus, instead, opened up a shop.

Also, these bar / taverns / restaurants with gaming... any of them been open past the 5 year magical mark ? Are they running in the black if so ? Might be hard to prove, but i'd be very surprised if either was the case. Is gaming anecdotal to the business model (i.e. this is a restaurant or bar that gamers just happened to start frequenting a lot, and so gaming is like the unofficial flavor of the establishment, but not officially backed, or is the business model "well sell drinks/food and gaming stuff purposefully combined". )

Cuz man, i'm, doing the arithmatic in my head on that (when i was younger i worked in the restaurant and Servery industry, and i've done some professional freelance game design - that' i've been paid to do, lol. haha), and i'm just... not coming up with a way that works longterm.

A restaurant may be one of a small handful of business ventures that are MORE risk laden than a game store. Combing the two and having it succeed for longer than a 3-5 year period would be akin to lightning striking in my mind.